Golden Spike announce Phase A for commercial lunar landing missions

[Thorny]

It takes courage to stand up and propose a new direction and be the first.

You don't have to be courageous. You could simply be nuts.

And often, it is very difficult to tell the two apart.

[RocketmanUS]

Heavy lift was the /fastest/ way before you had the decades of rendezvous/docking experience we have. Heavy lift is "easiest," not cheapest. Developing a new, rarely used heavy lift launch vehicle is also an even better way that things can go wrong.

I know EOR and LOR and using medium launch vehicles isn't a new idea, but large stakeholders seem to ignore the possibility. This announcement may do no more than popularize the idea that you don't need a heavy lift rocket to land on the Moon.

It's the better way to go to use existing launchers for Lunar now. When there is the higher flight rates if they keep going to the moon then invest in a better launch system.

So if the can put an outpost on the surface and send 1 or 2 sets of crews per year then someone might want to invest in a better launcher ( they would already have their customer for it ).

So I agree with using what we have and add in later as needed.

[Rocket Science]

[/quote]

I believe Newt is part of GS correct?  What purpose does he serve other than publicity? 

Correct me if I'm wrong but we don't really know who the financial backers are other than the organization going to the bank once they line up customers.  Problem is, selling aircraft have a proven and world wide demand base with sales into the 1000's, that is a lot different than going to the bank for $8 billion saying we potentially have maybe 10 customers.  Good luck getting a bank to invest in that hence why I believe its more PR or an attempt to shape policy.

My main concern is, we don't even have proven commercial access to LEO so why are they chasing the moon?  Does SpaceX even have a LAS up and running yet? 
[/quote]

Newt is a Washington insider with connections both public and private who just happens to believe in the vision of a Lunar colony. If policy shifts occur, so much the better, how did the prior one work for the past decade?

These folks are creating a market which is different than serving a market ala “Blue Ocean”...

http://hbr.org/2004/10/blue-ocean-strategy/ar/1

Commercial LEO is going to happen regardless...

This is the first act of a long play... we need to sit a watch...

[Rocket Science]

It takes courage to stand up and propose a new direction and be the first.

You don't have to be courageous. You could simply be nuts.

And often, it is very difficult to tell the two apart.

True... but remember this fellow...

“Every vision is a joke until the first man accomplishes it.”  “Once realized, it becomes commonplace.”

Goddard

http://www.legacy.com/ns/news-story.aspx?t=robert-goddard--the-moon-man&id=279

[Mongo62]

Exactly what can two crew do in the amount of time they would have on the surface that is worth $1.5B?

They could collect a lot of rocks and soil.  And if at least one of the two is a trained geologist, they are likely to collect very scientifically interesting samples.  Given the projected relative costs, I would say that in the case of the Moon, trained humans collecting a lot of samples, plus Earth-based analysis of those samples, can get a lot more science done than the same amount of money spent on robots-only missions.  (Admittedly, the balance might tilt the other way for Mars for now.)

Golden Spike is apparently "talking to" various national governments about signing up for spots.  Naturally they are not releasing details, since the talks would surely be confidential, but I see no reason to doubt that they are ongoing.  It is much too early to write them off because they are not releasing detailed financial information right away.  This is not Mars One, who have zero credibility with me.  This group of people are solid on the technology side, although I admit I would have preferred to see some more financial whizzes amongst them.

[FinalFrontier]

Exactly what can two crew do in the amount of time they would have on the surface that is worth $1.5B?

They could collect a lot of rocks and soil.  And if at least one of the two is a trained geologist, they are likely to collect very scientifically interesting samples.  Given the projected relative costs, I would say that in the case of the Moon, trained humans collecting a lot of samples, plus Earth-based analysis of those samples, can get a lot more science done than the same amount of money spent on robots-only missions.  (Admittedly, the balance might tilt the other way for Mars for now.)

Golden Spike is apparently "talking to" various national governments about signing up for spots.  Naturally they are not releasing details, since the talks would surely be confidential, but I see no reason to doubt that they are ongoing.  It is much too early to write them off because they are not releasing detailed financial information right away.  This is not Mars One, who have zero credibility with me.  This group of people are solid on the technology side, although I admit I would have preferred to see some more financial whizzes amongst them.

They already have clients signed up. Was discussed on L2.

[Bill White]

While reading the GS paper titled "An Architecture for Lunar Return Using Existing Assets" I started wondering whether single impulse low energy trajectories were considered for deployment of the lunar lander.

It is not clear from the text of the document.

If not, then it seems to me that the mass budget for the lunar lander can be significantly increased without changing the launch vehicle.

[manboy]

It takes courage to stand up and propose a new direction and be the first.

You don't have to be courageous. You could simply be nuts.

And often, it is very difficult to tell the two apart.

True... but remember this fellow...

“Every vision is a joke until the first man accomplishes it.”  “Once realized, it becomes commonplace.”

Goddard

http://www.legacy.com/ns/news-story.aspx?t=robert-goddard--the-moon-man&id=279

I used to have a similar quote framed on my wall.

[kkattula]

I believe Newt is part of GS correct?  What purpose does he serve other than publicity? 
...

Maybe that's where all his Super PAC money's gone.

Maybe his whole presidential campaign was a PR stunt to get to Florida and make the moon colony, so called 'gaff''.

[cro-magnon gramps]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Prize_Foundation
Quote > In 1996, entrepreneur Peter Diamandis offered a $10 million prize to the first privately financed team that could build and fly a three-passenger vehicle 100 kilometers into space twice within two weeks. The contest, later titled the Ansari X PRIZE for Suborbital Spaceflight, motivated 26 teams from seven nations to invest more than $100 million in pursuit of the $10 million purse. On October 4, 2004, the Ansari X PRIZE was won by Mojave Aerospace Ventures, who successfully completed the contest in their spacecraft Space Ship One. < End Quote

When Peter Diamandis stood up, under the arch in St Louis and offered that prize, according to him, he had no money for the winner. It took 5 years and pounding the doors of VC and CEOs until he found the Ansari family, willing to fund it. In his own words, “It was hard.” After Columbia crashed and 9/11, it only got harder. He only had his belief in the correctness of what he was doing. He persevered and turned the world of innovation prize money upside down.
 
I believe that on December 6th we were witness to a group (NOT a single individual) standing on a precipice, with a well thought out (technologically) dream, that they are prepared to push through to reality. Let’s give them the benefit of the doubt, that somewhere, there are people willing to put up the money. It’s early days yet.

Gramps

[kkattula]

Hey QuantumG,

Did you notice the last page of the PDF that shows 5 nations flags on the Lunar surface?

The Australian flag is the only one "flying" backwards (right to left).

Could it be that even on the Moon Australia is "different"?

It reminds me of that Sesame Street song....
"Which one of these is not like the others, not like the others, not like the others...."

You're just looking at it from the wrong hemisphere. From up here in the southern hemisphere it looks fine.

[go4mars]

National or personal prestige can still be had even when an individual takes a foreign-made taxi to do something cool. 

[QuantumG]

They're nuts if they honestly think they're getting any significant amount of money out of the Australian government.

[kkattula]

National or personal prestige can still be had even when an individual takes a foreign-made taxi to do something cool. 

Exactly.

Say one wants to set up a small scientific base or prospecting camp on the Moon. Probably not permanently manned, but with astronauts to set it up, and occasionally visit to tend to mostly tele-operated equipment.

There are several nations and/or corporations that could (and might want to) operate such an outpost. Yet the first hurdle of getting people on to the surface and back is too high.

So one purchases transport from a commercial operation, then hypes up the crew personalities and on-going operations. Throw in some token contributions to the lander or other hardware, and even the transport can be spun as a 'joint mission'. 

Even just painting a national flag or company trademark on the launch vehicles has PR value.

[Bill White]

They're nuts if they honestly think they're getting any significant amount of money out of the Australian government.

How about an Australian media conglomerate? Exclusive coverage of the first Australian to travel to the Moon?

If you want to watch the first Australian on the Moon, you can only do so on (for example) stations belonging to the Southern Cross Media Group.

[Khadgars]

National or personal prestige can still be had even when an individual takes a foreign-made taxi to do something cool. 

Exactly.

Say one wants to set up a small scientific base or prospecting camp on the Moon. Probably not permanently manned, but with astronauts to set it up, and occasionally visit to tend to mostly tele-operated equipment.

There are several nations and/or corporations that could (and might want to) operate such an outpost. Yet the first hurdle of getting people on to the surface and back is too high.

So one purchases transport from a commercial operation, then hypes up the crew personalities and on-going operations. Throw in some token contributions to the lander or other hardware, and even the transport can be spun as a 'joint mission'. 

Even just painting a national flag or company trademark on the launch vehicles has PR value.

I understand that it is "possible" but do you really think thats going to happen?  It seems like the trend is more to produce your own industry rather than piggy backing onto someone else

[RocketmanUS]

Exactly what can two crew do in the amount of time they would have on the surface that is worth $1.5B?

They could collect a lot of rocks and soil.  And if at least one of the two is a trained geologist, they are likely to collect very scientifically interesting samples.  Given the projected relative costs, I would say that in the case of the Moon, trained humans collecting a lot of samples, plus Earth-based analysis of those samples, can get a lot more science done than the same amount of money spent on robots-only missions.  (Admittedly, the balance might tilt the other way for Mars for now.)

Golden Spike is apparently "talking to" various national governments about signing up for spots.  Naturally they are not releasing details, since the talks would surely be confidential, but I see no reason to doubt that they are ongoing.  It is much too early to write them off because they are not releasing detailed financial information right away.  This is not Mars One, who have zero credibility with me.  This group of people are solid on the technology side, although I admit I would have preferred to see some more financial whizzes amongst them.

The lander Pod from what I saw did not have any extra ability to lift extra mass back to LLO, just the two crew.

So just how much mass can it bring to LLO with the two crew?

[Warren Platts]

A hundred pounds for an Apollo 11 style smash 'n' grab would be plenty.

[Mongo62]

From the Press Release

Each surface expedition includes a surface stay time of at least 36 hours (exceeding the stay times of both Apollo 11 and Apollo 12), two moonwalks (EVAs), the use of a standard surface expedition tool kit and cameras and optional add-on packages, accommodation of up to 50 kg of lunar experiments and other customer-provided equipment (e.g., flags, plaques, etc.) to the surface, as well as the additional accommodation of up to 50 kg of lunar samples for return to Earth, together with all necessary governmental certifications. Orbital expeditions offer a week-long stay time.

[kkattula]

A hundred pounds for an Apollo 11 style smash 'n' grab would be plenty.

And they specify 50 kg of samples csn be returned.