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#1920 by roma847 on 12 Aug, 2020 22:34
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Hello everybody,
meanwhile I took a closer look at the lighting on the Side 1 of the MLP-2 and evaluated these three photos from different perspectives, whereby some lamps are unfortunately covert or not visible.
Thereby I noticed that there are not three, as previously assumed, but four lamps without reflector, which are circled on all images.
The first two images are image details from my reference photos of the MLP-2 during STS-6 (1983), each from a slightly different perspective.
The newly discovered lamp without reflector is the yellow circled Lamp 7, which in the 1st photo can only be seen with difficulty as a point to the left of the vertical strut, and in the 2nd photo as a point to the right of the slant strut.
Source: retrospaceimages.com - STS-6 High-Res. Image Library
Source: retrospaceimages.com - STS-6 High-Res. Image Library
But on this photo of the MLP-2 during STS-28 (1989) one can clearly see at the same lamp arrangement that the yellow circled Lamp 7 has no reflector.
Source: NASA
So I have to scratch four lamps with a glass body but without a reflector with the help of the UV Adhesive technique.
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#1921 by roma847 on 24 Aug, 2020 10:29
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Hello everybody,
with this update I want to briefly inform you about the current status.
In the meantime I have thought of a solution for laying the first four lamps in the red circle on the MLP-Side 1, whereby the LED wires are laid in such a way that they cannot be seen afterwards.
In an intensive exchange of ideas with my German Raumcon friend McPhönix, who built the ingenious Mega power bank for the complete pad lighting for me, we agreed upon a solution, in which the cabling between the power bank and the MLP takes place via the front Pedestal at the right-hand corner of the MLP.
Who would like to find out more about the structure of this power bank can look into his thread Lighting of models, unfortunately only in German.
After repeated detailed examination of the previous splitting of the three LED circles on the MLP-Side 1 I came across a tricky problem considering the sometimes very cramped spaces under the roofs of the MLP, related to the Lamps 5-7 in the yellow circle,
Source: retrospaceimages.com - STS-6 High-Res. Image Library
which I have marked with the yellow arrow in this image.
The following two images once again show the cramped conditions circled on site.
After the laying the first four lamps (1-4) of the yellow line, I would then have to climb up with the last three lamps (5-7) from the ceiling above the lower Access Platform along the stairs there up to the upper Access Platform above the LH2Valve Skid followed by pulling the strand with the three lamps through a real eye of a needle between the support struts of the LH2Transport Line, which would be almost impossible. In addition, the LED wire would then hang freely in the space in front of the tubes on the MLP wall.
To find a way out of this dilemma, I changed the division of the LED circles once again, which can be seen in the following images. Therefore I've extended the red circle by a lamp,
Source: capcomespace.net
which now ends with the Lamp 8 at this needle eye and is led on the rear wall to the return conductor (GND). Thus the yellow LED circle only has still four lamps (1-4).
The remaining two lamps (6/7) of the originally yellow circle now form the beginning of the light blue circle (1/2),
Source: capcomespace.net
which now includes eight lamps.
Source: capcomespace.net
With this redistribution, the laying of the LED circles should now be a bit easier, I hope so.
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#1922 by llanitedave on 27 Aug, 2020 03:49
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Wow! If you were to get any more detailed in this model I'd expect you to get the main engines actually firing!
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#1923 by Starbase101 on 27 Aug, 2020 04:33
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Don't be giving him ideas like that - next thing you know he'll be wiring up the SRBs for ignition!
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#1924 by roma847 on 27 Aug, 2020 07:12
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Thanks Dave and Mike for your funny humor.
And maybe also to make the Rainbirds spray yet ...
Source: NASA
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#1925 by EG on 27 Aug, 2020 21:33
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Wow! If you were to get any more detailed in this model I'd expect you to get the main engines actually firing!
Don't be giving him ideas like that - next thing you know he'll be wiring up the SRBs for ignition!
Anything he does doesn't surprise me anymore, All I can do is marvel at his skill and attention to details I wouldn't even see....Thanks Dave and Mike for your funny humor.
And maybe also to make the Rainbirds spray yet ...
Source: NASA
I'll really be impressed when the miniature robot astronauts go walking across the access arm and into the shuttle to take her into space.....
Definitely impressed at that point....
EG -
#1926 by roma847 on 27 Aug, 2020 23:16
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Thanks EG for your nice vision,
in this sense let's hold on tight to our dreams ...
Source: NASA
BTW, this catwalk is not for High Heels ...
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#1927 by roma847 on 29 Aug, 2020 20:11
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Hello friends,
let's go on.
And therewith back to the first LED circle (1-8, red), of which the first four lamps are somehow attached to the MLP wall, the question is only how?
On this already shown part from a photo montage from the Side 1 of the MLP-2 I had conjectured inlet pipes for the lamp cords at the fastening points of the lamps, laying in the middle of the wall's frames.
Source: capcomespace.net
That's why in a first version I used a Styrene rod (Ø 0,7 mm) to hold the lampshades, which I've glued with UV adhesive onto the lampshade.
To facilitate tests for the assembly and cabling of the first four LED lamps on the MLP wall, I made a true-to-scale copy of Side 1 from David Maier's paper kit as a template and then glued four vertical struts from the used styrene profiles,
as well as temporarily placed a lampshade, which should not lie against the wall directly.
Here the lamp with the holding rod is plugged into the wall, which would make this a useful attachment variant.
In the meantime I've remembered the great Launch Pad 39A Reference Photos by Troy McClellan, on which one can see at maximum resolution (3x click) that those are not tubes but Angle profiles to which the lamps were attached during the early STS missions, which were later replaced by other lamps like these ones here.
Source: Troy McClellan
On this image section I've measured some details and found that the angles, scaled to 1:160, are only 0,4 mm x 0,4 mm "large" and protrude slightly beyond the wall struts towards the front, i.e. they should be approx. 2 mm long, thereby the lampshades (Ø 2,8 mm) would be slightly in front of the wall.
But such small angle profiles there are not available neither made of styrene nor brass, whereby the smallest brass angles are 1 mm x 1 mm, which would be a bit too big.
So I was thinking about how and from what one could scratch such small angles.
But more on that tomorrow, have a nice day.
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#1928 by roma847 on 30 Aug, 2020 11:07
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Hello everybody,
first I've tried to convert the smallest Evergreen-H profile (1,5 mm x 1,5 mm) into an angle.
which after several cuts was 0,7 mm x 0,7 mm, but with legs 0,2/0,3 mm instead of 0,1 mm.
Then I remembered the Gutters on the MLP upper deck, for which I used Aluminum sheet (0,1 mm). So it was worth a try to make a possible small angle out of it, although the thought of it may seem rather crazy ...
As a bending aid, I had thought of steel rulers (approx. 0,5 mm), which should enable a similarly small leg length.
No sooner thought than done!
Since it is almost impossible to immediately bend a 0,5 mm narrow strip at right angles, I've started with a lot of overhang and then clamped the piece of sheet metal onto a sheet of steel,
and have bent this strip vertically upwards.
Then I've clamped the angled sheet metal upright between two steel rulers,
and have bent the strip up and down several times until it broke off. Then I've smoothed the breakline a bit,
wherewith one leg was already done. 
Then I've wedged the bent leg between the rulers,
and have broken off the remaining strip in the same way.
Thereby the angle was finished, was about 0,7mm x 0,7mm and looked quite passable.
And this is how the angle at the lampshade would look.
Now I'm curious what you're thinking about it?
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#1929 by EG on 01 Sep, 2020 03:17
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Now I'm curious what you're thinking about it?
Brother, I"m looking at those composite images you posted of the real thing, and I fail to see the lamps attached to the end of the angle irons you are replicating?
Do you have an image of the lamps attached to those angles?
Kinda mystified on where the lamps are going here.....
EG -
#1930 by roma847 on 01 Sep, 2020 23:39
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Hello EG,
this photo (3x click) of the MLP-2 is from 2012, on which the old lamps were disassembled and replaced by new lamps with a different shape, which were mounted on the vertical struts.
Source: Troy McClellan
On my reference photo from the STS-6 (1983)
Source: retrospaceimages.com - STS-6 High-Res. Image Library
one can similarly see as on this photo of the MLP-2 with the STS-28 (1989) with the same lamp arrangement, that the lamps were somehow attached to the angle profiles, I just don't know how? Unfortunately, one can't see that exactly.
Source: NASA
Someone or other will already know ...
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#1931 by EG on 02 Sep, 2020 03:18
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Ok brother, the newer image is a reference to the angle brackets used on the older version... The same brackets just a clearer picture of them...
It's clear now my friend... carry on...
And your replicating of them looks fine to me.....
As far as the lamp connection to the bracket? I would say a simple nipple from the fixture thru the hole in the end of the bracket with a nut and washer to suspend it, and a weather cap to seal the nipple....
With the lights removed all that is left is the clearly seen hole.... Pretty much a standard way of hanging simple lighting fixtures.....
EG -
#1932 by roma847 on 02 Sep, 2020 08:37
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If I understand you right, you mean this yellow marked hole in the lower angle with a similar clamping as at the upper angle for the tube?
That could make sense dear brother.
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#1933 by EG on 03 Sep, 2020 04:57
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Somewhat, in most electrical practice, a suspended light fixture is suspended from a bracket with a nipple.. like this attached picture...
The wires pass through the center of the threaded nipple which has a nut/washer to suspend the light from.....
Here's another example of a 40's Crouse Hinds...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/264655708386
And here is an example of a 60's Crouse Hinds vapor proof fixture, the method of hanging was from conduit which would function like a nipple...
https://www.rejuvenation.com/catalog/products/r6057
From the pics of the era you were modeling, this is the only way to mount them as shown....
Crouse Hinds was the main lighting manufacturer for NASA from the 50's to the early 80's....
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#1934 by roma847 on 04 Sep, 2020 22:25
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Thanks EG for these interesting information.
Great to know, that Crouse-Hinds was the main lighting manufacturer for NASA from the 50's to the early 80's ...
Source: NASA
Your image with the nipple has reminded me of the lamps on the RSS that were mounted according to the same principle, which one can see in this image, in which I've determined the dimesions for scratch building by using the diameter of the Reflector of approx. 2,8 mm in my scale 1/160, which I have estimated for the lamps on the Side 1 of MLP-2, using the width of the vertical girders (1,5 mm) of my MLP as reference measure.
Source: NasaSpaceflight.Com (James MacLaren)
But this variant with the folded aluminum bracket will probably not win the race, because it does not seem stable enough to me and the effort seems nearly overdone too. Therefore it was more of a feasibility test than seriously meant.
In addition, I really have to rein my mania for crazy details and concentrate on striking details and leave out less important ones. And with these four lamp holders, the last detail is less important, but rather that they serve the purpose and hold the lampshades. And with a length of approx. 2 mm, they can hardly be seen behind the lampshades anyway ...
I was rather more likely a bit too euphoric about my discovery that ultimately it was angular profiles what immediately has started my scaling and scratch generator. Therefore a simpler and more stable solution has to be found, as I have already demonstrated with the round rod.
For comparison I have added a Brass angle profile (1,5 mm x 1,5 mm), which, however, seems too big to me in terms of proportion. 
In short, I will probably use an Evergreen rod (0,7 mm x 0,7 mm), which fits well with the lampshade, is easier to glue together and should allow a stable hold.
Let's see ...
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#1935 by egilman on 05 Sep, 2020 02:59
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Thanks EG for these interesting information.
Great to know, that Crouse-Hinds was the main lighting manufacturer for NASA from the 50's to the early 80's ...
Source: NASA
Your image with the nipple has reminded me of the lamps on the RSS that were mounted according to the same principle, which one can see in this image, in which I've determined the dimesions for scratch building by using the diameter of the Reflector of approx. 2,8 mm in my scale 1/160, which I have estimated for the lamps on the Side 1 of MLP-2, using the width of the vertical girders (1,5 mm) of my MLP as reference measure.
But this variant with the folded aluminum bracket will probably not win the race, because it does not seem stable enough to me and the effort seems nearly overdone too. Therefore it was more of a feasibility test than seriously meant.
In addition, I really have to rein my mania for crazy details and concentrate on striking details and leave out less important ones.......
I was rather more likely a bit too euphoric about my discovery that ultimately it was angular profiles what immediately has started my scaling and scratch generator. Therefore a simpler and more stable solution has to be found, as I have already demonstrated with the round rod.
For comparison I have added a Brass angle profile (1,5 mm x 1,5 mm), which, however, seems too big to me in terms of proportion......
In short, I will probably use an Evergreen rod (0,7 mm x 0,7 mm), which fits well with the lampshade, is easier to glue together and should allow a stable hold.....
Let's see ...
Yep, there is a point where true scale is impractical, even if you could get the button lights to mount to the angle there is the issue of strength..... And no one is really going to notice or know different...
But you tried, and did a very good representation of that size angle in that small scale... I"m still impressed even if practical reality of the real world prevents it....
Well done my friend, your modeling skills are impressive indeed, your wisdom to know when to change course is even more practical....
EG -
#1936 by roma847 on 07 Sep, 2020 19:13
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Thanks egilman for your kind words.
I have internalized one insight in the meantime: It is not a matter of trying to make the impossible possible, but of concentrating on the essentials.
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#1937 by roma847 on 07 Sep, 2020 22:43
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Hello everybody,
finally, the wires (0,1 mm) with the LEDs (0401, 0603) have still to be threaded into the prepared lampshades and glued with UV glue whereby they are sealed and kept safe forever.
Source: NASA
Besides to these two lampshapes as on the MLP-Side 1, there are each on the RSS and on the transition from the FSS lots of these arc lamps, which were mostly mounted on the handrails,
Source: James MacLaren (39B) NASASpaceflight.com
whose rustic spherical shape from the Revell Launch Tower Kit I've already "admired" during my first lamps stocktaking analysis.
It looked already better with my lampshade, but compared to the lampshade, the stanchion with Ø 1 mm seemed to be oversized to me. 
On the basis of this photo of my Pad 39B expert James MacLaren, the dimensions could be estimated fairly precisely, using the diameter of the MLP lampshades (Ø 2,8 mm). Only the length of the upper pipe bend (3,1 mm?) should be a little longer due to the shortened perspective.
From this it can be seen that the curved stanchion with Ø 0,4 mm may actually only be about half as thick as that of the Revell lamp, which I had suspected.
In order to stay roughly on scale, I will use a brass tube with Ø 0,5 mm (0,09 mm wall thickness) into which I will pull in the two LED wires (0,1 mm) expediently before bending the pipes, because this is not impossible in the bent state,
but much more difficult is what a stressful test unfortunately showed me impressively.
And with a little bit patience and a steady hand, one can even scratch the cable loop on this arc lamp, making the lamp come pretty close to the original in my opinion.
I don't want to blaspheme, but when I see the Revell arc lamp I inevitably have to think of the fairy tale of the "ugly duckling" ...
And since we are dealing at the moment with dimensions, I would like to briefly refer to the help of my friend James, who I asked about the dimensions of the lamps and the diameter of the handrails on the pad, since at that time he was there day in and day out during building up Pad B.
In this way I wanted to clarify whether the diameter of the MLP lamps with shade (Ø 2,8 mm, 1:160) is right and roughly corresponds to the RSS arc lamps estimated by using my STS-6 reference photos, especially since Ø 2,8 mm corresponds to a real diameter of the lampshades of approx. 450 mm, which seems pretty big to me ...
In his detailed answer he started with the handrails, which, with a few exceptions, had a diameter of Ø 1,5" = 38 mm = 0,2 mm (1:160) on the entire pad.
With reference to the data sheet Steel Pipe Specifications Schedule 40 he then referred to the fact that the Ø 1,5" refers to the Nominal Size (IPS), which corresponds to an outer diameter of Ø 1,9'' = 48 mm = 0,3 mm (1:160).
Furthermore, he also pointed out a small but fine difference in his photo, on which one can see in the red circle, that the stanchion of the lamp is attached to the handrail tube with two round steel brackets and has a slightly larger diameter, what I had already noticed before too.
James assumes that, for reasons of stability, that for these upright standing handrails were used steel tubes with Ø 2"(Nominal Size) with an outer diameter of Ø 2,375" = 60,3 mm = 0,4 mm (1:160), which corresponds to a real diameter of at least approx. 60 mm, which is quite conceivable.
And these two diameters, for the stanchions (Ø 0,4 mm) and for the handrails (Ø 0,3 mm) correspond well with those diameters estimated by me, wherewith the diameters of the MLP lampshades (Ø 2,8 mm) determined by me
are also quite realistic.
Now it was just a matter of determining the length of the bent end of the stanchion on which the lamp hangs, for which I used another photo of my padblower from its reworked and enhanced NSF thread Space Shuttle Launch Complex 39-B Construction Photos.
Source: James MacLaren, Pad B Sories (p. 3), 16streets.com
Thereof results a length of approx. 5 mm (1:160), which corresponds with real approx. 80 cm, which seems quite plausible. In this photo one can also see that the stanchion of the lamp is a bit thicker than the tubes of the handrail.
But since all RSS handrails in the Revell Kit have a diameter of Ø 0,8 mm and all FSS handrails even have Ø 1 mm and are therefore all oversized, it becomes clear once again that there will still be a lot of work to be done when I will substitute these handrails with PE handrails (Ship's railing (1:150) with Ø 0,3 mm made by ABER of Poland.
With this rather sobering outlook, I will leave it at that for today.
Nevertheless, friends, nothing is impossible, Strength lies in calmness!
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#1938 by Ronpur50 on 13 Sep, 2020 01:00
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Wow! Back to the lights on the MLP! That just amazed me when you did it the first time and it still does! I was happy to stick a strand of Christmas lights in my old one. LOL
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#1939 by roma847 on 13 Sep, 2020 08:46
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Thanks Ron for looking in on me again.
Yeah, the lighting of the entire launch pad is a rather challenging undertaking, the more I look into it in detail and imagine it on my diorama in this small scale (1:160) ...
Source: NASA
I must have been insane of having planned this ever ...
But now there is no turning back and I have to and will bite me through.
Where there's a will, there's a way!
