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#1540 by roma847 on 13 Aug, 2018 14:23
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Hello verybody,
there are good news, because the Track Shoes look amazing after the download to 1:160.
Source: arcforums.com (crackerjazz)
But the exciting question is and remains, how these tiny shoes will look in the printed state?
Now my friend Joe should connect the shoes but still together to a set, as can be seen in Simpson 3D Design, because referring to printing it should be more favorable and therefore cheaper than 20 separate parts.
Source: shapeways.com (Simpson 3D Design)
This has also been confirmed to me by Shapeways because the production team only needs to handle a single model instead of 20 separate parts when printing a set with sprues. As a result, planning the models for printing and cleaning/post-processing is cheaper. And although there are more material costs, the labor/handling costs for a set are lower!
Then I was still interested, which arrangement of the shoes in the set would be more favorable for printing, standing upright as in Simpson's set, or if the shoes would lie flat?
And the answer to that was very interesting and extremely important.
Although the position for Shapeways doesn't really matter, it's favorable to keep the parts flat and as close as possible (smaller footprint).
If one keeps them flat (rather than stacking on top) it will reduce the amount of wax required to print in Fine Detail Plastic (so less support material sticking to the set), which is very important for subsequent cleaning the sets, if I remember the pull-ups at my FUD-IT ...
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#1541 by Hobbes-22 on 13 Aug, 2018 17:50
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For scale model tanks, there are several ways to handle the tracks:
- in some models, you get separate track links. Looks nice, but very labor-intensive
- others supply a single part that contains all the track links that are in a straight line so for the crawler, you would get 4 straight sections, plus a number of individual links for the curved track sections. These are called 'link and length', as described here
The cheapest way to get your tracks (and to keep your sanity) would be link and length, with one sprue that contains the 4 straight sections plus all the individual links.
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#1542 by roma847 on 14 Aug, 2018 23:36
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Thanks Hobbes for this amazing article,
in which the Link and Length variant presents an interesting solution that one could take into consideration.
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#1543 by roma847 on 15 Aug, 2018 15:50
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Hello friends,
meanwhile we are one step further, but unfortunately still not at the finish because the shoes are still pinching a bit.
My friend Joe has now inserted the supports into his 3D-Model, which corresponds to the configuration of Simpson 3D Design, but has in my view not selected the most favorable arrangement of his model (see below), which I had actually recommended him after consultation with SW.
Source: arcforums.com (crackerjazz)
At first he had uploaded the upper version with upright standing 20 shoes, for whatever reason, whose price (10,80 €) but seemed suspicious to me,
especially since from Simpson 3D Design the set of 20 (1:144) for 7,81 € is offered. 
And the result is now the lower variant, which would be acceptable in terms of price (7,61 €), but does not seem to be the preferred direction for minimal support wax residues, if I did understand SW correctly.
But just that would be strived for the Ultrasonic cleaning of the FUD shoes, which I still well enough know from my FUD-IT know.
But, as I've heard from others, SW is principally indifferent to this aspect because they print the models (against better conscience) as they are uploaded by the designer, as the customer ultimately pays for it, which is why I'm going to grill SW once again because of the preferred variant.
Regarding the prices, I was surprised that the even finer version Smoothest Fine Detail Plastic, formerly FXD if I'm not mistaken, is only marginally more expensive (7,78 €)!!!
Unfortunately I only have a comparison between FUD (left) and FXD (right) based on my ASTC Rings, which do not have as small details as the Track Shoes, as one can see here,
which is why I'm not sure if FXD would actually make a noticeable difference in the details of the shoes?
If so, I would prefer FXD for these little shoes (14,3 mm x 2,5 mm).
Therefore I made my friend Joe still aware once agian and asked him to turn the middle arrangement 90° and put the shoes flat on the running surfaces as this in my view should be the most favorable arrangement of the model, if I understood SW correctly, so that during printing (FUD/FXD) as little as possible wax residues remain.
Now I'm curious what will come out ...
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#1544 by egilman on 16 Aug, 2018 04:51
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Wow! Nice. Beautifully done!
Simpson at 1/72 scale for 456 track shoes would come to $550.00 US Dollars
1/144 scale from either shop would be about half that.
That's for a full set of shoes.
I would love to buy them for my stack, but they are a little out of my retiree price range......
Another interesting thing to note....
A single track shoe in 1/72 is 5.91, a sprue of 20 is 23.74, or, 1.19 per shoe.
I wonder what would happen if he had them printed in a sprue of 100..... -
#1545 by EG on 16 Aug, 2018 05:38
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I wonder what would happen if he had them printed in a sprue of 100.....
Better yet, a sprue of 120, that would give you a complete set (with a couple of extras) for one truck -
#1546 by roma847 on 16 Aug, 2018 06:19
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Wow! Nice. Beautifully done!
Simpson at 1/72 scale for 456 track shoes would come to $550.00 US Dollars
1/144 scale from either shop would be about half that.
That's for a full set of shoes.
I would love to buy them for my stack, but they are a little out of my retiree price range......
Another interesting thing to note....
A single track shoe in 1/72 is 5.91, a sprue of 20 is 23.74, or, 1.19 per shoe.
I wonder what would happen if he had them printed in a sprue of 100.....
At 1/144 the differences are still much clearer:
A single track shoe is 5.65 €, a sprue of 20 is 7.84 €, or 0.39 € per shoe.
And besides, the upright shoes in the Simpson sets do not seem to be the optimal arrangement for minimal wax residuals.
Therefore I did ask my friend to lay the shoes flat in the sprue set and then to compare the prices for a 20 as well as for a 40 set.
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#1547 by EG on 20 Aug, 2018 21:39
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Manfred,
Your Crawler Sprocket & Roller Drawings are up at the LUT group files area in the LC-39 Crawler files folder.
Enjoy....
EG -
#1548 by roma847 on 20 Aug, 2018 22:18
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Thanks EG for your help,
this could become the challenge for my ARC friend Joe.
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#1549 by roma847 on 20 Aug, 2018 23:06
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Hello everybody,
Thank goodness!
After a week is finally over the confusion about the SW information keep the parts flat, which had confused me and led to the misunderstanding between flat and upright standing Track shoes.
As my ultimate demand at Shapeways has shown, the arrangement of the 20 Set in my friend Joes' offer is the preferred arrangement for FUD/FXD prints with the fewest wax residuals. 
Source: shapeways.com (Crackerjazz)
But as SW did remark, the wall thickness in the image is only 0.2 mm and needs to be corrected, because the minimum wall thickness for these materials is 0.3 mm.
And if SW says that, it will be true. 
Source: Shapeways (Mitchell Jetten)
But the too small wall thickness should not be the problem now, maybe it would be a useful compromise, to reduce the width of the grooves from 0.4 mm to 0.3 mm and to move them by 0.1 mm to the center, then the wall thickness would also be 0.3 mm, which would be the demanded value.
This would mean that also the small holes (Ø 0.2 mm) have to be slightly shifted, whereby it is questionable whether they can even be realized.
But at this statement from SW I can only laugh, if I think of my FUD Intertank ...
"But keep in mind that Shapeways removes the wax.
We ship the models after we have removed the wax and cleaned the model.
The only thing we recommend the customer to do is use a bit of soap before starting to paint since a bit of oil could still be left on the model (used to remove the wax)."
I think I'll have to send SW an image with greetings from the Dental lab ...
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#1550 by EG on 21 Aug, 2018 00:45
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Interesting on the track shoes.
But the major question still is what is the most economical/efficient volume of shoes in one printing.
Their viability as an after-market product is dependent on that one question.
Right now as it stands they are cost prohibitive for most modelers who don't have unlimited financials. -
#1551 by roma847 on 21 Aug, 2018 16:30
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Therefore I have asked my friend Joe, to upload also a 40 as well as a 100 set, to see how the prices will change.
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#1552 by roma847 on 22 Aug, 2018 22:15
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Hello everybody,
in the meantime, my friend Joe (crackerjazz) has corrected the wall thickness to 0.3 mm and uploaded both a Set of 20
Source: shapeways.com (Crackerjazz)
and a Set of 40 Track shoes.
Source: shapeways.com (Crackerjazz)
These sets are very inexpensive, and therefore I ordered immediately the Set of 20 in both FUD and FXD for comparison and I'm curious to see what the Track shoes will look like.
BTW, a Set of 100 is not possible. Because the file size is too big Shapeways doesn't accept the upload.
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#1553 by roma847 on 24 Aug, 2018 22:42
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Hello everybody,
as a Raumcon friend told me, the maximum file size is 64 MB or 1.000.000 polygons. This friend already has a lot of experience with 3D printing and lets himself print a lot at SW.
BTW, he also has an interesting assessment regarding the wax residuals and thinks that the flat arrangement of the set would be more favorable for cleaning for the following reasons:
In the arrangement with upright standing Track shoes, one has indeed less support wax, but in places which are difficult to clean, such as e.g. the grooves on the surface and between the joint parts. In addition, the lower side is touched by the support wax and has a rough surface, while the upper side is not touched by the wax, and therefore is smooth.
Therefore, he would take the flat set arrangement, because here the support wax touches almost exclusively the tread, which is smooth and therefore easy to clean.
By using Fine Detail Plastic no overhangs can be printed , so everything has to be supported from below with supporting wax.
At the flat arrangement of the set, the track shoes lay on their treads, everything above it has no overhang, so it does not need support wax. But if one puts the shoes on their side (upright standing shoes), one needs a support wax on the side that matches the shape of the shoes.
In the following image he has marked the areas that are touched by the wax.
Rose = set with upright standing shoes
Green = flat set arrangement (the entire smooth underside is touched by the wax)
Orange = is touched by the wax in both arrangements
Since I find his point of view comprehensible, I confronted SW once again with it, let's see what they will say this time.
From the point of view of the model builder that would mean that the 3D designer should then rather choose the flat set arrangement in his 3D model.
That's why I want to see the two Sets of 20 first and judge their quality, then I can make a decision as to which arrangement is more favorable for printing of the remaining shoes.
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#1554 by roma847 on 02 Sep, 2018 22:44
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Hello everybody,
to anticipate it, since a week I try so far in vain to get an information from the Shapeways customer service regarding the image of my Raumcon friend with the support wax, which is sad, but true. And then, on top of that this sudden price increase for the Track Shoe Sets, 
which can be seen in this overview.
Right at the beginning I had ordered a Set of 20 both in FUD (5,18 €) as well as in FXD (5,98 €), which I would like to introduce to you soon.
After that, in consultation with my designer Joe (Crackerjazz) I let him model and upload a Set of 40, which was economically priced and has costed 6,80 € (8/21/18) for FUD.
The more surprised I was, when it was offered a few days later for almost double the price of 12,68 € (08/25/18), whereupon I have confronted SW with it of course.
I would not like to comment on the unpleasant chewing gum discussion here, whereupon SW would introduce a new price structure in order to remain competitive with other companies and not to lose any money. Therefore, one would charge a surcharge on smaller offers in order to be able to better compensate for the overall costs.
Supposedly, one would previously inform the shop owner about such price increases, what my friend Joe could not confirm.
On the other hand, it is just as surprising that the FUD Sets of 40, 52 and 56 with 12,68 € have the same price, what would speak in the end for the Set of 56.
And now to the two sets, which were already eagerly awaited, of which I was pleasantly surprised.
From the normal observer's perspective, you can not see much more than the actual size, and at first glance, I was rather surprised by the small sets in the SW bags, which is why one has to take a little closer view.
On the left side of the pictures one can see the FUD Set, and right next to it the FXD Set.
As one can see in this picture, the FXD Set (right) seems to be a bit more detailed, at least I imagine it.
What strikes one immediately is the fact that almost all the fine details come out well,
both the drillings in the Pin Lugs (Ø 0,5 mm), as well as the fine grooves (0,3 mm) in the slanting upper sides, which for such tiny booties 14,3 mm x 2,5 mm was not necessarily to be expectable. 
Even the small slants at the ends of the treads can be seen, only the small holes (Ø 0,2 mm) have apparently fallen by the wayside, but what one can get over.
First of all, I drilled the holes in the pin lugs with a thin twist drill (Ø 0,45 mm), and cleaned them this way of possible wax residuals, and then threading the shoes on insect pins (Ø 0,3 mm).
So for now, the result is extremely pleasing, and in my view one would not necessarily need the FXD Set, especially since the differences at those small parts are really low.
I will now ask my friend Joe (crackerjazz) to upload the Set of 20 in the proposed Flat set-arrangement to see if or how the price is possibly changing, in order to decide on the final variant.
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#1555 by roma847 on 10 Sep, 2018 20:38
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Hello everybody,
in the meantime my ARC friend and designer Joe has uploaded the new Set of 20 in flat orientation to check the pricing.
Source: arcforums.com (crackerjazz)
Source: arcforums.com (crackerjazz)
Source: arcforums.com (crackerjazz)
But that's only half the battle. Unfortunately that's not the most favorable orientation of the set for printing,
what fairly surprised me, because I explained it to him in a PM and email exactly on the basis of this SW image, modified by me. 
Source: shapeways.com (Mitchell Jetten)
Because important is not only the flat arrangement of the shoes in the respective set, but in particular the flat orientation of the set for printing, and the designer has to set the 3D printing Orientation for FUD/FXD himself on the 3D Tools page before uploading the 3D-File to make sure that it is printed as well this way.
When this is not done, Shapeways will orientate the model at the production department in a way it will be printed most efficient, whatever SW may understand by that ...
Therefore pressing the red button 'Save Orientation' ist very important before uploading any 3D models.
Then the preferred orientation will be used everytime for printing the model.
Therefore I asked him, to select this flat orientation for the new Set of 20 in the 3D Tool and to save it once and for all.
In the last 14 days I have intensively exchanged with Mitchell Jetten (SW customer sevice) about this problem of the different orientation of the parts during printing. Namely, the support structure (yellow) depends on this orientation in the printing process, which is illustrated by these pictures in every possible orientation of the set.
This orientation corresponds to the previous set arrangement with upright standing shoes.
Source: shapeways.com (Mitchell Jetten) and following pics
In this arrangement with upright standing Track shoes, one has indeed less support wax, but in places which are difficult to clean, such as e.g. the grooves on the surface and between the joint parts. In addition, the lower side is touched by the support wax and has a rough surface, while the upper side is not touched by the wax, and therefore is smooth.
Therefore, our 3D expert (Half-Dead) would take the flat set arrangement with sprues, because here the support wax touches almost exclusively the tread, which is smooth and therefore easy to clean (left pic), while the top with the grooves does not come into contact with the wax. Therefore, the reverse arrangement (right pic) would be conceivably unfavorable.
And for the sake of completeness, here is the upright arrangement of the shoes, which is also out of the question.
One should note that in theses pics the sprue was removed, so these examples are only applicable when one orders the shoes separately.
On a sprue much more support could be needed once shoes are stacked on top of each other.
While the two upper shoes look good, the underlying ones are totally covered in wax as wax must be added on each shoe to support the overlying shoes. But that would mean immense subsequent cleaning effort.
And Joe's set arrangement with upright standing shoes would look similar like this, and therefore he should select and save the flat orientation.
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#1556 by roma847 on 10 Sep, 2018 23:51
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Hello everybody,
because there was going on here something strange, I wanted to get to the bottom of things and wanted to know from my friend, if he has selected a different Print orientation for the last Set of 20 (Flat Ori) than at the first set. Because there must be a reason why my first two Sets of 20 so far are displayed like all other offers in a flat set arrangement and the last set since then in an upright aarrangement, what I have also asked SW.
Then Mitchell Jetten suggested that I could order the last Set of 20 (Flat Ori), then he could see if this orientation was saved, if not, he would cancel the order, which I then have done and told him the order number.
And so it came about that he had canceled the order because the designer was not determined orientation, which is why SW can not guarantee the printing orientation. Great right?
Therefore, I should make sure that my friend sets this set orientation step by step and saves it.
Of course, he was very surprised about that and he said that he did that several times, what he could show with several screenshots, so that the confusion was perfect.
Opening the model in 3D Tool:
Selection of the material Smooth Fine Detail Plastic (FUD):
Set 3D Printing Orientation:
Save Orientation:
Source: arcforums.com (crackerjazz)
After my friend had informed SW about it, Mitchell Jetten then backed down
and said that I could now order the Set of 20 (Flat Ori).
That in contrast to the offer still the flat lying set is displayed, is apparently a system bug, as SW had to admit. And that after three weeks controversial discussion ...
Since my friend Joe had convinced me more, I finally ordered this set, even though its upright position made me doubt. 
Source: shapeways.com (Crackerjazz)
Since I still had lack of clarity about the expected wax residuals of the set, I asked my friend to send me a Screenshot of the location of the Support Material color], which can be displayed in the 3D Tool, as indicated by our expert Half-Dead.
He did that as well, and this screenshot provided the final clarity and at the same time proof that he had actually saved the flat orientation before the upload.
And that is exactly the desired support wax arrangement, which facilitates the final ultrasonic cleaning.
Then I asked Joe to upload the set of 52 also with the flat orientation, what he has done in the meantime, as these pictures show.
Surprisingly, this 52 Flat Ori-Set in the SW shop is also displayed in an upright position, as the Set of 20, which does not bother me anymore. 
Source: shapeways.com (Crackerjazz)
It would be interesting now to see the support structure of the first two Sets of 20 with the upright standing shoes,
Source: shapeways.com (Crackerjazz)
whereby I suspect that this should look something like this.
Source: shapeways.com (Mitchell Jetten)
And as this picture shows, I once again had the right nose.
Thereby the annoying problem with the supporting wax would be now also clarified, and if the ordered 20 Flat Ori-Set looks good, then I can order eight of these 52 Flat Ori-Sets, and with a total of 476 Track Shoes then I would have more than enough for the Crawler.
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#1557 by roma847 on 11 Sep, 2018 16:43
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Hello friends,
but now the confusion gets totally crazy, because I just received the message from SW that the Set of 52 - Flat Ori would not be printable. I want to spare you the bla-bla-bla explanation because it is bland and trivial. 
Unfortunately, we are unable to manufacture Crawler Track-1-160-scale-Set of 20-Flat Ori.
I should contact the designer and discuss with him what to do next.
While the previous Set of 20 has disappeared from the online store, there is now a Set of 20-Flat Ori but only in FXD for 6,39 €, whereas the previous set with upright shoes did cost 6,02 €.
In this offer, both the set and the shoes are lying flat.
Strange in this context is that SW had pointed out in the meantime that the Set of 52 - Flat Ori would be printable only in FUD, but not in FXD,
Source: shapeways.com (Crackerjazz)
what I did not care, because I wanted everything in FUD anyway.
Now my friend Joe has just told me that SW has informed him that the set would not be printable because the walls would be less than 0.3mm, but what should not be true, which proves his inspection once again. 
Source: shapeways.com (Crackerjazz)
This can not be the true reason, because SW has printed the previous two sets with 0,3 mm wall thickness, after it had been changed in advance from 0,2 to 0,3 mm.
One could almost think, as if they want to sell us for stupid, so that is slowly becoming a nightmare ...
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#1558 by roma847 on 12 Sep, 2018 14:47
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Hello everybody,
yesterday I got an email from SW that this is the real issue ...
Source: shapeways.com (Mitchell Jetten)
The strange thing is that they've already printed this out twice successfully and without complaint. The only difference being the orientation of the shoes on the sprue.
While the stacked set arrangement is printable,
Source: shapeways.com (Crackerjazz)
the flat one is not printable ...
Source: shapeways.com (Crackerjazz)
That may understand, who wants ...
Maybe their printers are also weather-sensitive like my wife ...
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#1559 by roma847 on 12 Sep, 2018 16:01
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Hello friends,
regarding my objections that both sets have already been printed in FUD and FXD, I received from SW this wise answer:
The current rejected model file has not been printed before which is why it was checked again.
Only when a model is printed before we skip the checking process.
While the geometry in the model could be the same as the order we printed before, it's a new upload, which is why it's checked again.
The designer requires to make it 0,3mm thick in order to pass.
Well roared the lion, I thought so with me.
But there is another possibility, as I know meanwhile.
This is the SW feature Print It Anyway, with the help of which the designer can "force" a print to see how the part comes out, admittedly without warranty, but nevertheless interesting.
Maybe we still should try this ...