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#1480 by mike robel on 20 May, 2018 16:44
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Manfred,
Did you finish the MLP and I didn't notice or are you just taking a well-deserved break from that labor of love to move onto something seemingly a little easier?
Mike -
#1481 by roma847 on 22 May, 2018 00:26
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Thanks jgoldader for your help,
I know this drawing, because I have Jenkins' great Shuttle book.
By using this drawing I come to a Nozzle length of 17,3 mm (1/144).
Here is a comparison of the dimensions of all four Nozzles with the original, based on this drawing.
This confirms the visual impression that the RealSpace Nozzles look a bit too plump and are larger than those of Newware, which is also illustrated by this image.
And that's why I can live well with the Newware Nozzles and I'll most likely use them.
Unless I let myself get carried away by the 3D version (1/144) of my ARC friend Bill (niParts), but then I would be right back to the damn support wax, and this stuff then remove from those fragile pipes ...
Quelle: shapeways.com (niParts)
BTW, as Shapeways meanwhile has updated the names of their materials, one will have to get used to new terms.
- Smooth Fine Detail Plastic is the new name for FUD,
- Smoothest Fine Detail Plastic for FXD, and
- White Natural Versatile Plastic for WSF.
Because there are apparently still no shortcuts, I continue to use the usual old shortcuts.
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#1482 by roma847 on 23 May, 2018 14:44
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Manfred,
Did you finish the MLP and I didn't notice or are you just taking a well-deserved break from that labor of love to move onto something seemingly a little easier?
Mike
Hi Mike,
you hit the nail on his head.
The MLP deserved a break, and so did I. But first I wanted to finish this 3D Intertank chapter.
But the show will go on - Stay tuned!
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#1483 by roma847 on 27 May, 2018 23:12
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Hello everybody,
in connection with the planned Flour-Technique for the production of the ET's Instafoam insulation I receiced a hint by David Hanners in papermodelers.com forum, that this structure alone would not be sufficient, in order to faithfully reproduce the ET.
He meant that I would necessarily have to consider the typical annular bands in the insulation too, wherewith he probably wanted to challenge me.
Maybe some of you know David Hanner's contribution "Detailing the Space Shuttle" in Michael Mackowski's "Space in Miniature #3" book.
When he built a Shuttle Stack (1/144) ages ago for this contribution, he coated bands of the ET with liquid cement to soften the plastic, then scuffed the surface with heavy-grit sandpaper, turning the ET during he sanded. He worked in sections, and finally he softened it up with medium sandpaper.
Unfortunately I have only a black&white copy, on whose figures one cannot see the details of his stack clearly enough.
Although I had an idea what he meant with the annular bands, I was not sure.
But Michael Mackowski was so nice and had thankfully sent me some scans of David's original photos like these here.
As one can see in the photos, he had roughened the ET in circumferential direction with sandpaper, which was a promising approach, but that's not the typical Instafoam structure.
Independently, the crucial question for me is always how certain details looked at the STS-6.
Source: retrospaceimages.com (STS-6)
Source: NASA (STS-126)
BTW, in my view, not this structure but the Intertank is the dominant structural feature of any External Tank, especially since this band/ring structure is not always very distinct.
But at least he made me think, though it could surely become difficult to create such a regular as well as delicate structure.
My idea for the ET front end is relatively simple and came up when I looked at my WSF-IT, especially at the sight of the fine ribs in the Thrust panel.
There are 26 ribs in this panel, which is approx. 24 mm wide, corresponding to approx. 0,9 mm for one rib.
Therefore, I imagine this ET front part as WSF 3D print with adjacent annular bands at a distance of about 0,9 mm.
It would be ideal if these bands would become flatter towards the nose. Or one could choose a uniform height and sand off these bands softly to the nose.
But I think that a good 3D designer can easily model such a front piece, which is why I have already asked Michael Key, if he could do this job.
In this image I tried to count the bands from bottom to top, which is not that easy, and came to about 55.
Depending on what this structure of the 3D front part looks like, one could also use the Flour-Technique to level out the gaps if necessary.
For the ET rear part (185 mm), this approach would also be possible in principle, although I do not know what height Shapeways can print. But even a division into three parts would be conceivable without thinking about the costs.
But I could also imagine a different solution without 3D printing, with a lot of small Evergreen strips plus Flour-Technique, or better not?
Maybe I'm dreaming about it now, because meanwhile it has become late again and I'll go to bed now quickly ...
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#1484 by roma847 on 31 May, 2018 15:39
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Hi everybody,
in the ARC Forum I got an interesting hint to Simon Atkinson, who used a lathe for simulating the grooves in his External tank. He is a professional modeler and illustrator since more than 40 years and here is his awesome Shuttle stack (1/72), which is currently (2016) in store at The London Science Museum.
Source: satkinsoncreativearts.com
A similar technique, e.g. by engraving the grooves, I have already imagined, but unfortunately I have no lathe, which would probably need a CNC control to get even intervals.
But for that, 1/72 is of course much more workable, especially since the grooves should be at least 2 mm apart.
This approach is marvelous,
but if you take a closer look at its texture, the grooves for my taste are a bit too pronounced and smooth, because only perfect even grooves are created with the lathe, and thus seem almost a bit artificial. 
Nevertheless, I think that this structure could also be simulated for a 1/144 ET, if one can realize the corresponding spacings of approx. 1 mm by a clever 3D modeling of a narrow and very flat wave-like ring structure by creating fine grooves (approx. 0,3 mm) in about 1 mm intervals, much like between the fine ribs in the Thrust Panels.
Regarding the Spray On Foam Insulation (SOFI) of the ETs one has to distinguish early and later missions, as for the Orbiter's TPS Tiles and Blankets.
In the earlier missions like STS-6, this wave-like ring structure was more pronounced, while it is less or barely visible in later missions. Later at the SLWTs, the SOFI was also much more evenly applied and reworked.
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#1485 by elliottwolf on 01 Jun, 2018 17:38
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Manfred,
Sadly, one of the crew members of STS-6 (Donald Peterson) passed away several days ago:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/donald-peterson-sr-who-spacewalked-from-the-shuttle-challenger-dies-at-84/2018/05/29/d1d8d148-634d-11e8-a69c-b944de66d9e7_story.html?utm_term=.0e54eed3ddb2
The obituary describes spacewalks Donald Peterson and Story Musgrave performed as part of the mission. It's been sad to lose so many astronauts recently -- John Young, Alan Bean, and now Donald Peterson.
Elliott
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#1486 by roma847 on 01 Jun, 2018 23:59
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Thanks Elliott,
even if this is a sad news that consternates me, especially since Paul J. Weitz left recently too.
Source: commons.wikimedia.org
Seated: Paul J. Weitz (left), crew commander, and Karol J. Bobko, pilot. Standing: Donald H. Peterson (left) and Story Musgrave, both mission specalists.
Source: flickr.com (NASA Kennedy)
Forever remembered, may they all rest in peace ...
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#1487 by roma847 on 06 Jun, 2018 22:31
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Hello everybody,
after the tough struggle for the rings of the ET
now back to the grooves of the last FUD-IT, whose ultrasonic cleaning in the Dental lab was still on the agenda. 
For that I had procured the recommended intensive cleaner TICKOPUR R 60,
which we wanted to use based on the conditions recommended by BANDELIN.
Soucre: bandelin.com
Since this cleaner i.a. Sodium hydroxide (5-15%), also called caustic soda, caution was bidden, which is why protective gloves were required.
After the nice colleagues of the ChiliDent Lab were back on board after their short break, it was finally time and the Final Countdown was imminent.
In the beginning of May in my Reply #1475 I had presented the critical areas with the strongest wax nests and captured in pictures.
In order to shorten the cleaning time, we have increased the concentration of the TICKOPUR to approx. 20 %. Through the rubber ring, the height of the glass insert in the ultrasonic bath could be adjusted so that it hung about 3 cm above the bottom of the tub, which is as important for optimal cleaning as filling the tub with the same solution,
that the boss has personally mixed.
Due to the size of the glass insert, the Intertank could be inserted lengthwise, which is also advantageous for the cleaning effect.
After setting the thermostat to 70 °C, the appliance was switched on by the assistant,
and the bath began to bubble.
After every 30 minutes, the IT was turned a quarter turn further. Overall, the cleaning time was about three hours.
After that, the tank looked white and completely clean, which one could already see at first glance.
So finally the work was done, and with a tip into the kitty I thanked me once again and light-hearted said goodbye.
And as one can see in this photo, the cleaning was really perfect, because there are no wax residues left, which is why no aftertreatment was required too.
This is especially also illustrated by comparing the photos before and afterwards.
And here once again a few pictures of both ITs in comparison, where the FUD-IT looks even more filigree than the WSF-IT.
Nevertheless, I think that one can use both ITs, depending at whim and purse.
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#1488 by Starbase101 on 22 Jun, 2018 03:58
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This build is absolutely fantastic! Yep, I registered here just now so I could say that. You're doing everything that I had planned to do with my Revell kit, except that you're actually doing it for real. It makes me want to start on my kit. You're doing an amazing job!
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#1489 by EG on 25 Jun, 2018 17:33
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Manfred,
You sir are an inspiration!!!
Fantastic work, especially in a take-off scale, non standard.
I've read the whole thread and am literally amazed at your ability to find a resolution to a scaling problem....
then, execute it with precision.
Simply amazing.
AS a result of your inspiration, I've decided to build my dream model, a complete Apollo Saturn V stack.
Haven't decided yet on Apollo 10 or 11 yet, But have started to collect the pieces, and basic documentation.... (blueprints & photos)
I love the way you use photogrammetry to deduce the sizes of the parts you need to build!
Skills we pick up along the way can become very useful in ways we never calculate when we learn them.
Keep up the good work!
EG -
#1490 by roma847 on 25 Jun, 2018 23:54
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Thanks my friends for your nice compliments.
I am very happy if I can inspire you and help you a bit with my work.
In which scale do you both want to build?
What kits do you want to use for your Apollo Saturn V stack, or should everything become a scratch-build?
Then let's see action!
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#1491 by roma847 on 26 Jun, 2018 00:01
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Hello everybody,
after finally defeating the wretched wax residue of my FUD-IT,
now I have to find a solution for the mysterious wavelike SOFI texture on the STS-6 ET-8 surface, what is a further exiting chapter. 
Source: wikimedia.org
And then I'll hope finally to come back to model building ...
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#1492 by goretexguy on 26 Jun, 2018 00:53
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Dip the plastic in acetone (or other suitable chemical) to soften it, the wrap tightly with string?
I kneel before your patience, perseverance and awesome modeling powers. -
#1493 by EG on 26 Jun, 2018 01:16
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Hello everybody,
after finally defeating the wretched wax residue of my FUD-IT, now I have to find a solution for the mysterious wavelike SOFI texture on the STS-6 ET-8 surface,
Something soft to coat the nose and then a comb with appropriately shaped teeth and a turntable?
Would need to be something soft like a paste to give it that texture but dries hard?
or,
An edged piece of metal with the curvature of the tank nose having appropriately shaped teeth to scrape the pattern into the nose rotating on a turntable?
Just thinking out loud.
I'm working in 1/72 The Dragon Series Saturn V and Dave Maiers L-UT and Crawler. I'll probably be scratch building the L-UT and Crawler cause I don't think the paper will hold a complete 5' full plastic Saturn V without major reinforcement. Besides the DM L-UT isn't very accurate/realistic when looking up close.
Thank you for the offer of help, I will probably need it. I only hope I can generate the patience you have shown in your build.....
Now, no more de-railing your wonderful masterpeice......
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#1494 by roma847 on 26 Jun, 2018 07:33
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Hi friends,
thanks for your thoughts, but it must also be feasible and the kit parts should survive. 
That's why I hope that Michael Key can create a 3D model for printing in WSF.
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#1495 by Starbase101 on 26 Jun, 2018 23:12
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I am very happy if I can inspire you and help you a bit with my work.
In which scale do you both want to build?
Your build along with the discovery of LVM Studios detail sets and Michael's models on Shapeways has motivated me to unearth my launch tower box and prep for finally building the diorama I envisioned when buying the kit decades ago. With the EDU*Craft Diversions models and many after-market details (New Ware, Warbird, Real Space, etc) I plan for full 1:144 scale with LED lighting. (I had planned for lighting back in 1986 when buying the model kit, but microscopic chip LEDs didn't exist then, nor did 3D printing and many of the other luxuries modelers have today.) I have bookmarked all your build logs which will be a fantastic resource as I start my journey. Your model has the look of being built full-size and then zapped with a shrinking gun to make it miniaturized. Truly outstanding work you're doing and I just stare wide-eyed at your build photos. It's amazing, just amazing. (Builds like these should be accompanied by warnings to have a towel ready for wiping away the drool as chins drop in awe of the craftsmanship.) -
#1496 by roma847 on 27 Jun, 2018 11:16
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Hi Starbase101,
I'm Manfred, what's your name in real life?
Thanks for your overwhelming compliments, you seem to be really on fire, that's
Your planing for full 1:144 scale diorama with LED lighting sounds like a well known melody in my ears ...
What Revell kit do you want to use, the Revell Stack or the big old Launch Tower kit?
Just start your own thread and let's continue discussing there, about all what you want to know, okay?
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#1497 by Starbase101 on 27 Jun, 2018 16:05
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Hi Starbase101,
I'm Manfred, what's your name in real life?
Thanks for your overwhelming compliments, you seem to be really on fire, that's
Your planing for full 1:144 scale diorama with LED lighting sounds like a well known melody in my ears ...
What Revell kit do you want to use, the Revell Stack or the big old Launch Tower kit?
Just start your own thread and let's continue discussing there, about all what you want to know, okay?
Hi Manfred, very nice to meet you. My name is Mike and I really am blown away by what you've done with the MLP. It's as if you stole all the ideas out of my head when I wasn't looking.
I have the original big-box Space Shuttle With Launch Tower kit from Revell from 1986 and the 2014 Limited Edition re-issue, several other Revell orbiters and stacks, a few Minicraft stacks, an Airfix stack, a Dragon orbiter.....yes, you can see I'm a fan of the shuttle era, have been since 1978.....and all the LVM Studios detail sets (which will need modifying or remaking for 1:144 scale), all the New Ware detail sets (for both Revell and Airfix), Warbird Decals, Lake County Space Port decals, Real Space resin parts and decals, Cutting Edge decals, all the shuttle-related EDU*Craft Diversions models, and many hundreds of dollars worth of Shapeways parts (including Michael's MLP parts). I am including 1:144 scale figures and vehicles in the build to help it look "alive". (I'm currently collaborating with a designer on Shapeways for modeling the NASA-modified Airstream Excella with interior in 1:144 scale, to be followed by a Lenco BearCat security vehicle...both to be parked beside the crawler.) Various other police and civilian vehicles, service trucks, etc are also bought for populating the scene, and I'm tentatively considering a motorized RSS (I have some ideas about how that can work).
I do plan on starting my own thread here as well as a video log of the build on my YouTube channel when I am ready to kickoff this project. At the moment I'm committed to finishing a few other already-started projects first, so I'm only in "acquisition mode" collecting up all the various things I know I'll (maybe) need for the build. Your threads have been wonderful in helping with this and because of you I've been able to locate acceptable photoetched railing, mesh walkways, lamp shades, and other parts. I will probably have questions for you regarding where you found some of the pieces you used for various details (so I hope you kept notes in the event of a quiz later on! haha).
Ever since seeing the very first shuttle launch and buying the 39A model kit I've been wanting to build it up "proper" like you're doing, and finding your threads while doing research for my project has motivated me to stop dreaming about it and start doing it. You're doing such a fantastic job on your build that I didn't want to wait until starting mine before registering here to compliment your craftsmanship. Very nicely done! -
#1498 by roma847 on 28 Jun, 2018 23:13
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Hi Manfred, very nice to meet you. My name is Mike and I really am blown away by what you've done with the MLP. It's as if you stole all the ideas out of my head when I wasn't looking.
Hi Mike,
that's a cool joke.
QuoteI have the original big-box Space Shuttle With Launch Tower kit from Revell from 1986 and the 2014 Limited Edition re-issue, several other Revell orbiters and stacks, a few Minicraft stacks, an Airfix stack, a Dragon orbiter.....yes, you can see I'm a fan of the shuttle era, have been since 1978.....and all the LVM Studios detail sets (which will need modifying or remaking for 1:144 scale), all the New Ware detail sets (for both Revell and Airfix), Warbird Decals, Lake County Space Port decals, Real Space resin parts and decals, Cutting Edge decals, all the shuttle-related EDU*Craft Diversions models, and many hundreds of dollars worth of Shapeways parts (including Michael's MLP parts). I am including 1:144 scale figures and vehicles in the build to help it look "alive". (I'm currently collaborating with a designer on Shapeways for modeling the NASA-modified Airstream Excella with interior in 1:144 scale, to be followed by a Lenco BearCat security vehicle...both to be parked beside the crawler.) Various other police and civilian vehicles, service trucks, etc are also bought for populating the scene, and I'm tentatively considering a motorized RSS (I have some ideas about how that can work).
Then you have an amazing collection already.
... a motorized RSS, you really make me curious. BTW, that would be also a stunning idea for the crawler, right? 
QuoteI do plan on starting my own thread here as well as a video log of the build on my YouTube channel when I am ready to kickoff this project. At the moment I'm committed to finishing a few other already-started projects first, so I'm only in "acquisition mode" collecting up all the various things I know I'll (maybe) need for the build. Your threads have been wonderful in helping with this and because of you I've been able to locate acceptable photoetched railing, mesh walkways, lamp shades, and other parts. I will probably have questions for you regarding where you found some of the pieces you used for various details (so I hope you kept notes in the event of a quiz later on! haha).
Ever since seeing the very first shuttle launch and buying the 39A model kit I've been wanting to build it up "proper" like you're doing, and finding your threads while doing research for my project has motivated me to stop dreaming about it and start doing it. You're doing such a fantastic job on your build that I didn't want to wait until starting mine before registering here to compliment your craftsmanship. Very nicely done!
As I can see, the virus has got you absolutely under control, then ignite your main engines and get started, then we can also discuss detailed questions from time to time ...
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#1499 by Starbase101 on 29 Jun, 2018 00:38
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Absolutely I'll be contacting you with questions here and there about what sort of products you found for some of the details (eyewash bowl, lamp ferrules, etc). Being a CAD engineer I'm tentatively considering sizing up the LVM sets and etching new parts for my tower, and the RSS resin parts to be sized up to 1:144 and 3D printed.
Me personally, I wouldn't want to motorize the crawler. Too difficult with all the 3D-printed treads (456 of them!), and the 3D-printed feet they attach to are pretty small for motors and probably not entirely hollow. I will prefer to have my crawler beneath the MLP. The RSS is much easier to animate.
Anyway, I'll go back to being an observer for now and will be in touch later.
