Author Topic: New hope for Warp Drive concept?  (Read 80103 times)

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #40 on: 09/20/2012 03:03 pm »
The solution for all that already exists: ionized gas contained by a magnetic field, as used in fusion reactors.

I'm not entirely up to date here.  Which fusion reactors are you referring to?
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline ChileVerde

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #41 on: 09/20/2012 03:28 pm »
I'm surprised. The highest definition non-interferometric gravity sensors I know of work to within a hundredth of a nm/s^2 (which would probably pick up a rat in the same room).

Slightly OT, but could you provide a reference to those sensors, please? Ultra-sensitive gravimeters are an interest I have (albeit a mild one).
"I canít tell you which asteroid, but there will be one in 2025," Bolden asserted.

Offline IRobot

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #42 on: 09/20/2012 03:31 pm »
The solution for all that already exists: ionized gas contained by a magnetic field, as used in fusion reactors.

I'm not entirely up to date here.  Which fusion reactors are you referring to?
Tokamak reactors.

Offline Patchouli

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #43 on: 09/20/2012 03:35 pm »


That would still be tremendous. And remember, this would be for the initial entry level device. There is little doubt that these things would be improved upon once they were better understood, after all we have jet airplanes now we started with propeller planes.

Even just 10x c would open up a lot of nearby star systems to exploration.
Gliese 581 becomes just a 2.2 year trip.
« Last Edit: 09/20/2012 04:10 pm by Patchouli »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #44 on: 09/20/2012 03:48 pm »
Tokamak reactors.

Thanks.  Checked out the Wiki page.  Seems like a fair amount of work has been done since I last checked out fusion reactors!  From the I was There department:

http://www.westland.net/ny64fair/map-docs/technology.htm

Quote
A spiral downramp lead visitors to a large well at the center of the pavilion where they watched "the creation of a miniature sun." A big Lexan dome surrounded the apparatus. Inside were two three-foot-long quartz tubes filled with deuterium plasma, Inside them, after a three minute countdown, a million amperes of current created a magnetic field 200,000 times stronger than the earth's. And inside this invisible bottle, millions of deuterium nuclei fused at a temperature of 100 million degrees for six millionths of a second. Those watching saw a tremendous flash accompanied by a loud bang that signified the birth of a new age. The experiment implied that in less than two decades man would have an almost cheap limitless source of electrical energy, enough to last for billions of years.

Your ears rang for a few minutes after the demo.

From:

http://nywf64.com/genele08.shtml

Quote
This apparatus is called a theta-pinch fusion device, so-called because the current in the plasma flows in the azimuthal, or theta direction, with respect to the compressing magnetic field. Other experimental devices of this type are also being studied in this country at Los Alamos and at the Naval Research Laboratory and in laboratories in several other countries.

Ie., not a Tokomak?
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline mikes

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #45 on: 09/20/2012 03:56 pm »
JET is a working tokamak fusion reactor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_European_Torus

Not energy-positive, obviously.

Offline IRobot

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #46 on: 09/20/2012 08:44 pm »
IMO, the BEST fusion reactor so far is the MAST project from the UK.
I'm going a bit out of topic here, but fusion reactors kick in for two reasons: you can make a fusion driver from it and you can use plasma confinement as a billion degree insulator.

http://www.ccfe.ac.uk/MAST.aspx

Offline 93143

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #47 on: 09/20/2012 09:14 pm »
the Hawking radiation generated at the edge of the bubble itself

It strikes me that this could be less of a problem for the newer field designs, since the gradients aren't as high...?

Online sanman

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #48 on: 09/21/2012 04:55 am »
I would just like to see somebody generate a space warp to begin with.

From surfing around, it seems like Harold White has said that he intends to generate a warp in the lab using his interferometer, and not just measure it with his interferometer.

I don't understand how an interferometer can alter spacetime. I can understand how it could perhaps measure such a warp effect using path difference, a la Michelson-Morley. But I don't understand how it would generate the warp effect, even in a tiny way (he said "1 part in 10 million")

When they talk about big atom-smashers like LHC producing "tiny black holes", at least I can see that smashing heavy atoms together at high speeds could cause extrema conditions where predicted black holes might be expected to occur, howsoever tiny. But I don't see what extrema conditions would be generated by a mere laser interferometer, that would lead to a "space warp" happening.

It seems to me that Alcubierre's warp drive is based on Unobtainium - exotic matter. How White plans to achieve any warp effect without the exotic matter is unclear to me. Anybody have any answers to this?
« Last Edit: 09/21/2012 04:59 am by sanman »

Offline krytek

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #49 on: 09/21/2012 05:01 am »
Good question. How the hell do you go about creating a "warp" bubble?

Offline aero

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #50 on: 09/21/2012 05:28 am »
Good question. How the hell do you go about creating a "warp" bubble?
I thoght I read that he might use a capacitor. Here -

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20110015936_2011016932.pdf

See page 8 of the pdf.
Quote
(something as simple as a very high voltage capacitor ring)
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline GeeGee

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #51 on: 09/21/2012 05:41 am »


It seems to me that Alcubierre's warp drive is based on Unobtainium - exotic matter. How White plans to achieve any warp effect without the exotic matter is unclear to me. Anybody have any answers to this?


I believe this has to do with White's modification of Alcubierre's metric. The canonical form suggests boost is the driving phenomenon behind the Alcubierre drive, and not the contraction/expansion of space. White proposes using negative pressure as an alternative to negative mass-energy for producing high boost. More details here:

http://www.earthtech.org/publications/davis_STAIF_conference_2.pdf
« Last Edit: 09/21/2012 05:43 am by GeeGee »

Offline alexw

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #52 on: 09/21/2012 05:45 am »
Good question. How the hell do you go about creating a "warp" bubble?
     Well, warp coils of course.
                             -Alex

Online sanman

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #53 on: 09/21/2012 05:59 am »
Thanks for the replies, guys - although they leave me with even more questions.

So is it being posited that any kind of field - even from a voltage gradient - can warp space in some small but measurable way?

And when you say "boost", do you mean just some arbitrary differential or imbalance of forces? Casimir pressure, whether negative or positive, only takes place across quantum-scale spans in confined spaces. I guess that's okay for use in the lab to measure stuff, but surely nobody's going to make a 20-lightyear-long confined tube as a conduit for us to squirt ourselves along to travel between star systems.

So we all understand that matter alters space - it does so by exerting gravity, and it can also block vacuum fluctuations - but I don't see how this effect can be scaled up or amplified to the extent that we'll be able to usefully exploit it for exceptional purposes.

Online sanman

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #54 on: 09/21/2012 06:17 am »
Good question. How the hell do you go about creating a "warp" bubble?
     Well, warp coils of course.
                             -Alex

Heh, when I think of a "warp coil", I imagine in my head some kind of BEC atom laser or superfluid traveling in a helical path, allowing superposition of small gravitational waves to create a unidirectional field flux - just like what any coil does - like an electromagnetic coil, etc.

Has anybody thought of going that route?


Offline IRobot

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #55 on: 09/21/2012 02:15 pm »
Speaking of Tokamaks, just noticed that Elon Musk's twitter background is a tokamak! Hummmmm... HUMMMM!!!!! Am I getting hot, Mr. Musk?? Any fusion rocket on your Mars reusable plan?? heheh

http://twitter.com/elonmusk

Offline IRobot

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #56 on: 09/21/2012 02:16 pm »
Speaking of Tokamaks, just noticed that Elon Musk's twitter background is a tokamak! Hummmmm... HUMMMM!!!!! Am I getting hot, Mr. Musk?? Any fusion rocket on your Mars reusable vehicle plan?? heheh

http://twitter.com/elonmusk

Offline Moe Grills

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #57 on: 09/21/2012 08:17 pm »
OK! The optimistic science-news report makes warp drive appear
possible.
Then one must ask, can NASA put together an unmanned test probe
using this technology to (say) Barnard's Star within the next 100 years?

IMHO it seems unlikely that NASA will develop this type of technology
soon.
Look how long it took NASA to use ion propulsion (50 years?). Light sails (that small test article that was in LEO a short time ago) (30 years?).
Ordinary plasma propulsion (I'm waiting)? VASIMR (I'm waiting?
Warp drive? Maybe if NASA is around 200 years from now thay may have
a working model.

Online sanman

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #58 on: 09/22/2012 08:16 am »
Well, as long as the Warp Drive requires the Unobtainium, then we may be stuck without it at all. Because if a certain kind of exotic matter doesn't exist, then all our fantasizing won't make it come true.

Why can't we also look at matter waves for creating gravity waves? Gravitation is a property of matter, just like charge and spin are a property of electrons. Maybe we should try to use atom lasers and wave mechanics to somehow manipulate gravity waves.

Given the wave-like nature of BECs, it seems to me that this behavior is likely imparted by the vacuum (ie. when you remove the kinetic energy from matter, all it has left is its interaction with the vacuum, which therefore causes the the matter to become fuzzy and fluctuating like the vacuum itself)





I've always wondered if changing matter in this direction of vacuum-fuzziness (aka. "quantum fuzziness") could somehow allow it to bypass the conventional relativistic constraints of the vacuum. Well, we know that even atoms can show quantum teleportation, so in that sense we already know they can transmit their characteristics faster than light, but teleportation inherently means it's happening in a vacuum-independent manner.



Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #59 on: 09/22/2012 01:20 pm »
Good question. How the hell do you go about creating a "warp" bubble?
I thoght I read that he might use a capacitor. Here -

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20110015936_2011016932.pdf

See page 8 of the pdf.
Quote
(something as simple as a very high voltage capacitor ring)

Which, of course, can only be called a flux capacitor...
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

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