Author Topic: New hope for Warp Drive concept?  (Read 80137 times)

Online TrueBlueWitt

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New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« on: 09/18/2012 12:49 am »
http://news.yahoo.com/warp-drive-may-more-feasible-thought-scientists-161301109.html

Looks like there might be some reputable scientists behind this.

Thoughts?  Someone eager to shoot this full of holes?

Offline IRobot

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #1 on: 09/18/2012 01:01 am »
I've read about this before. Started as a curious mathematical/physics study but this new development is extremely interesting because they believe they can test part of the concept on a lab.

Even if it does not produce an engine, it will certainly push science and technology forward (if they can show something on a bench).

Strange how awkward sci-fi concepts have been seriously investigated lately.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #2 on: 09/18/2012 01:13 am »
Someone eager to shoot this full of holes?

Thought May Be More Feasible Than Warp Drive, I Say.

Grammatically speaking and all...
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Chandonn

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #3 on: 09/18/2012 02:10 am »
If the space-time distortion works, we may be able to see artificial gravity and antigravity as spin-offs -- that is: according to Gravitational Well Theory.  Even if we don't get a workign Warp Drive, the spin off technologies shoule be "fascinating"...

Offline scienceguy

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #4 on: 09/18/2012 02:34 am »
What they need to do is find a way to make exotic matter.
e^(pi*i) = -1

Offline sanman

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #5 on: 09/18/2012 04:34 am »
Make it so!

Offline sanman

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #6 on: 09/18/2012 08:06 am »
But actually, if recalculating with a rounded donut ring gives superior results over a flat ring, when what about if you recalculate with a spheromak type of shape?

Offline KelvinZero

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #7 on: 09/18/2012 11:41 am »
Well there are all those niggly causality paradoxes.. but if they have a desktop experiment, go for it :)

Dont get depressed when this doesn't pan out though. Look at all these worlds that we can reach without any magical propulsion.
The real trick is taking ice, hydrocarbons and ore and growing potatoes. Do that sustainably and we can become a species of a hundred worlds before leaving the solar system.
« Last Edit: 09/18/2012 12:05 pm by KelvinZero »

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #8 on: 09/18/2012 01:29 pm »
The real trick is taking ice, hydrocarbons and ore and growing potatoes quorn.

Fixed that for ya.  Whoops, gotta go...
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Atlan

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #9 on: 09/18/2012 02:14 pm »
Are there any publications or at least more scientific press releases then yahoo to this topic? would be interesting to see what they are doing in the lab. if they hope to achieve the warping, then the exotic matter was found i assume?
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Offline simonbp

Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #10 on: 09/18/2012 02:35 pm »
This would appear to be the most recent: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20110015936

Also, a description of the interferometer here: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20110023492

Both on NTRS, neither peer-reviewed, so YMMV.

Online Retired Downrange

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #11 on: 09/18/2012 02:38 pm »
See page 8 of this .PDF from Roundup

 
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/roundup/online/2012/0712.pdf

Offline scienceguy

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #12 on: 09/18/2012 08:58 pm »
See page 8 of this .PDF from Roundup

 
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/roundup/online/2012/0712.pdf


Page 8 on that PDF is interesting. The way I understand it is, particularly for Alcubierre's drive, the reason you need a Jupiter-sized mass of exotic matter is that the exotic matter would have negative mass. According to F = Gm1m2/r^2, if one of the m's is negative, the force will be repulsive. Thus, if you have a Jupiter mass of negative mass behind the ship (not too far away, remember r) then it's actually the gravitational force that is pushing the ship. A Jupiter mass is needed because the gravitational constant is so small (6.67 x 10^-11).
e^(pi*i) = -1

Offline aceshigh

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #13 on: 09/18/2012 10:59 pm »
Looks like there might be some reputable scientists behind this.


yes, one of them even posts here at NSF Advanced Concepts Forum... at the Propellantless Field Propulsion and Application thread (which has basically (and luckily) become a Mach Effect thread after the first 20 pages)

Offline sanman

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #14 on: 09/19/2012 12:49 am »
Bah, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, not name-dropping.

I want to understand how this group of experimentalists intend to create the effect. If exotic matter is required for it (eg. dark matter), then how do they plan to get some, in order to achieve the effect?

Is this effect comparable to "gravity waves"? In which case, there are already large detectors which have been built for this (eg. LIGO). How would these warp researchers and their laser interferometer be capable of detecting things any more precisely?

Offline Go4TLI

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #15 on: 09/19/2012 01:04 am »
You know, Sonny White is about one of the smartest people I know.  We sat down about a year ago and he took me through some of the concepts and what they mean and how they would work. 

Clearly there was some work to do and a lot of ground to still cover in understanding the physics behind it, etc not to mention the engineering and technology to make those physics possible. 

But, all that said, I'm a believer.  I'm no dummy and he ran circles around me with the explanations.  I am more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and am very glad work like this is happening. 

Offline sanman

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #16 on: 09/19/2012 02:12 am »
Yeah, but dude, the problem is when the effect isn't reproducible and doesn't get observed universally, and can only be seen on the experimental apparatus of the originator/proponent. Nobody seems to be explaining how these people will observe the tiny perturbations in spacetime, and how they will be created without the exotic matter.

Maybe they'll first have to sign a contract with LHC to first produce a few milligrams of the stuff. Otherwise, how can they measure what they can't create?

Online QuantumG

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #17 on: 09/19/2012 03:32 am »
Laser interferometers are not so sensitive that they can measure the deflection due to gravity of ordinary matter, why would they be for exotic matter?

I hear these "new" techniques are about some theory of space-time warping that doesn't involve exotic matter at all, nor the enormous amounts of energy that E=mc2 would suggest. Not that I understand them at all.
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Offline sanman

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #18 on: 09/19/2012 07:29 am »
Well, I wanted to post a separate thread on the latest "attosecond-pulse lasers" which push the bounds of brevity so far that they are now being used to study quantum phenomena in much greater detail than before. So I was thinking maybe that as this kind of stuff approaches the Planck length, it will somehow enable us to manipulate spacetime (or rather the virtual particle sea underlying it)

That guy White did mention the idea of oscillating/modulating the warp effect to get more for less.

But further surfing around the net shows White saying that they plan to create some tiny version of the effect in the lab, so I really, really want to know how they intend to achieve it. I take it this isn't the same as the "mini black holes" promised by particle collider experiments?

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: New hope for Warp Drive concept?
« Reply #19 on: 09/19/2012 08:25 am »
Laser interferometers are not so sensitive that they can measure the deflection due to gravity of ordinary matter, why would they be for exotic matter?

I hear these "new" techniques are about some theory of space-time warping that doesn't involve exotic matter at all, nor the enormous amounts of energy that E=mc2 would suggest. Not that I understand them at all.


As I understand it, they're not looking for gravity waves. They're looking for plain space/time distortion. If a cockroach scuttled near one of these things, it would pick it up its gravity well.

I've seen papers on positive mass warp drives, but they require conformal gravity to be a true extension of general relativity.

ISTR Sonny White's approach uses some application of the Casimir effect, a quantum mechanical version of Woodward's Mach Effect. So it's quite wobbly. If that doesn't work, then you might have to "find" some exotic matter to stick in the ring. But 500"kg" is not the Kardashev Type II requirement of a Jupiter mass of exotic matter. Here he is holding one of the gizmos.



Mmmm, donuts. Wonder if he's thought of using two warp nacelles? (Ducks and runs)
« Last Edit: 09/19/2012 08:53 am by Lampyridae »
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