LIVE: MSL Curiosity Post Landing SOL 1 onwards Update Thread

#900 by notsorandom on 05 Mar, 2013 00:44
Curiosity Rover's Recovery on Track
PASADENA, Calif. - NASA's Mars rover Curiosity has transitioned from precautionary "safe mode" to active status on the path of recovery from a memory glitch last week. Resumption of full operations is anticipated by next week.

http://go.nasa.gov/Vws8Lb
#901 by catdlr on 07 Mar, 2013 21:47
March 07, 2013

MEDIA ADVISORY : M13-045

NASA TV Briefing Discusses Curiosity Rover Analysis of Mars Rock

WASHINGTON -- NASA will hold a news conference at 1 p.m. EDT, Tuesday, March 12, to discuss the Curiosity rover's analysis of the first sample of rock powder ever collected on Mars.

The briefing will be held in the James E. Webb Auditorium at NASA Headquarters at 300 E St. SW in Washington. It will be broadcast live on NASA Television and streamed on the agency's website.

The participants will be:
-- Michael Meyer, lead scientist, Mars Exploration Program, NASA Headquarters, Washington
-- John Grotzinger, Curiosity project scientist, California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, Calif.
-- David Blake, principal investigator for Curiosity's Chemistry and Mineralogy investigation, NASA's Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif.
-- Paul Mahaffy, principal investigator for Curiosity's Sample Analysis at Mars investigation, NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md.

Media representatives may ask questions from participating NASA centers or by telephone. To participate by phone, reporters must contact Dwayne Brown at 202-358-1726 or [email protected] by noon, March 12.

During a two-year prime mission, researchers are using Curiosity's 10 science instruments to assess whether the Gale Crater area on Mars ever offered environmental conditions favorable for microbial life.

For NASA TV streaming video, scheduling and downlink information, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov/ntv

The event will also be streamed live on Ustream at:

http://www.ustream.tv/nasajpl

More information about Curiosity is online at:

http://www.nasa.gov/msl

and
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/

Follow Curiosity on Facebook and Twitter at:

http://www.facebook.com/marscuriosity

and

http://www.twitter.com/marscuriosity

- end -
#902 by iamlucky13 on 08 Mar, 2013 00:44
It sounds then like they had analyzed the sample before it went into safe mode. Looking forward to a good run by ChemMin and SAM and some basic results.
#903 by Bubbinski on 08 Mar, 2013 02:19
It was just a couple weeks ago they got the rock drilled and sampled. Now they're calling a press conference from NASA HQ. What did they find?

I'm looking forward to Tuesday.
#904 by Dalhousie on 08 Mar, 2013 04:49
Quote from: Bubbinski on 08 Mar, 2013 02:19
It was just a couple weeks ago they got the rock drilled and sampled. Now they're calling a press conference from NASA HQ. What did they find?

I'm looking forward to Tuesday.

So am I. It does not take long to do an XRD and XRF analysis of a sample (the terrestial version of ChemMin does it in less than an hour), and the results are generally straight forward to interpret. It's not like the mass spectrometer...
#905 by stone on 09 Mar, 2013 21:00
This is a press conference which was said to happen on a regular basis. This is the last one before the conjunction. Why do people expect anything?
#906 by hop on 09 Mar, 2013 21:42
Quote from: stone on 09 Mar, 2013 21:00
This is a press conference which was said to happen on a regular basis. This is the last one before the conjunction. Why do people expect anything?
With the safing and switch to B side, Curiosity also just suffered it's most significant anomaly to date. That would enough to warrant a press conference all by itself, although the presenters for this one tells us we'll get some science too.
#907 by Dalhousie on 10 Mar, 2013 04:32
Quote from: stone on 09 Mar, 2013 21:00
This is a press conference which was said to happen on a regular basis. This is the last one before the conjunction. Why do people expect anything?

Because the announcement said they would be discussing results. I don't expect anything out of the ordinary.
#908 by stone on 10 Mar, 2013 08:51
Quote from: Dalhousie on 10 Mar, 2013 04:32
I don't expect anything out of the ordinary.

If you look what Craig at spaceref is talking about he gives the impression that NASA announced a historic discovery. This is what I hate with the journalists, making up a story based on nothing.
#909 by Eosterwine on 10 Mar, 2013 16:16
Quote from: stone on 10 Mar, 2013 08:51
Quote from: Dalhousie on 10 Mar, 2013 04:32
I don't expect anything out of the ordinary.

If you look what Craig at spaceref is talking about he gives the impression that NASA announced a historic discovery. This is what I hate with the journalists, making up a story based on nothing.

I completely disagree.

Even the recent revelation that many of the rocks of Glenelg had been formed through multiple aqueous processes over different time spans only received the standard teleconference - I actually think that discovery is far more important a find than that which Opportunity made early in it's mission of flowing water on Mars, and that got the full NASA HQ treatment. Why not wait and announce a press Q&A at the planetary science conference thats happening a few days later?

Dragging these scientists all the way across the country to NASA HQ in Washington seems a bit odd for something routine or "nothing".
#910 by stone on 10 Mar, 2013 17:00
Quote from: Eosterwine on 10 Mar, 2013 16:16
Dragging these scientists all the way across the country to NASA HQ in Washington

It is only John Grotzinger, and David Blake. The others are from headquarters. Passadena would have meant travel for the other two.
#911 by AJA on 10 Mar, 2013 17:27
Getting back to the engineering for a bit...

From http://go.nasa.gov/Vws8Lb

Quote
"...Also, we need to go through a series of steps with the B-side, such as informing the computer about the state of the rover -- the position of the arm, the position of the mast, that kind of information."

This is intriguing me. Obviously, there's no external means to determine the position of the arm etc. (I AM ruling out the possibility of reconstructing the positions from the pictures that were beamed back before the rover went into safe mode, and any potential for the orbiters to suddenly provide spy satellite quality images)

Now, given that there's no external means of position determination, the rover has to get this information from onboard instrumentation. If the B side is up and running, shouldn't it automatically read these parameters? I mean there's got to be a subroutine that does this, because the rover's semi-autonomous. Furthermore, when the rover goes into safe mode, doesn't it bring the arm and mast into a least risk position as it does (so the state would be pre-defined and known -- unless of course, this step didn't happen)?

Or do they imply that they've got to copy the relevant information from the A-side? Because that might be problematic...
#912 by Jim on 10 Mar, 2013 18:37
Safe mode would not move the arm
#913 by spectre9 on 10 Mar, 2013 20:06
One of the most robust computers ever made didn't just drop dead.

I think there's something else to this.
#914 by hop on 10 Mar, 2013 20:23
Quote from: AJA on 10 Mar, 2013 17:27
This is intriguing me. Obviously, there's no external means to determine the position of the arm etc. (I AM ruling out the possibility of reconstructing the positions from the pictures that were beamed back before the rover went into safe mode)
Why are you excluding this? Imaging is a pretty important part of monitoring and verifying the position of the arm.
Quote
Now, given that there's no external means of position determination, the rover has to get this information from onboard instrumentation. If the B side is up and running, shouldn't it automatically read these parameters?
My understanding (going from memory of stuff that was discussed when the arm was first commission) is that the arm obviously does have sensors that report the position of the various joints etc., but for really accurate positioning they need to be calibrated. This can't be done perfectly before flight, because of gravity, temperature and the loads it experience in launch and landing. If parameters for this were on the A side, they might need to be re-uplinked or re-created for the B side. This is mostly speculation, but the main point is that the arm is complicated, so it shouldn't really be surprising that re-initializing requires the ground in the loop.
Quote
Furthermore, when the rover goes into safe mode, doesn't it bring the arm and mast into a least risk position as it does
As Jim says, no chance of this. The first rule of safe mode is to do no harm. If something bad enough to trigger safe mode happens, the rover is not going to be moving the arm around.
#915 by hop on 10 Mar, 2013 20:25
Quote from: spectre9 on 10 Mar, 2013 20:06
One of the most robust computers ever made didn't just drop dead.
Correct, it didn't drop dead. Based on the information we have, it experienced what appears to be an error in flash memory. This is not terribly unexpected.
Quote
I think there's something else to this.
Such as? It's hard to see the point of this sort of vague innuendo...
#916 by spectre9 on 10 Mar, 2013 21:05
I just don't get it.

How does a flash memory chip corrupt itself after only slight use?

Is radiation that damaging to these chips?

Sorry if my "vague innuendo" offends you hop. You've jumped all over me before. There no rule of the internet that says you should be nice but it certainly helps.
#917 by AJA on 11 Mar, 2013 04:05
Quote from: hop on 10 Mar, 2013 20:23
Why are you excluding this? Imaging is a pretty important part of monitoring and verifying the position of the arm.
You answered this yourself
Quote
... for really accurate positioning they need to be calibrated.

Moreover, the arm might have moved since the last self-shot was taken. And the conditions (temperature etc. - to account for any expansion/contraction) have almost certainly changed.

Quote
...This can't be done perfectly before flight, because of gravity, temperature and the loads it experience in launch and landing. If parameters for this were on the A side, they might need to be re-uplinked or re-created for the B side. This is mostly speculation, but the main point is that the arm is complicated, so it shouldn't really be surprising that re-initializing requires the ground in the loop.

My point is that Curiosity is the best source for all this data! Regardless of the variety, number, or scope of the parameters. It seems an awfully roundabout manner to have to read this data, send it to the ground, and then them run a calibration routine and send it back up.

Quote
The first rule of safe mode is to do no harm. If something bad enough to trigger safe mode happens, the rover is not going to be moving the arm around.
Yeah, my first instinct led me to assume that nothing would be touched, and everything would be left as you were; but then, the rover isn't limited to a binary state of activity. If you remember, one of the things they were checking for when they did that overnight stress test on the arm, having it pressed down against the rock surface, was to determine if thermal contraction could cause red-line stresses on the arm, in case the rover it was to suffer a lock up while the drill-head inside rock.

I was just thinking that the protocols for safe-mode might be different depending on the exact problem faced, as well as what the rover was doing when it occurred. Sure, worst case scenario would be touch nothing - and save power and comms. But if she knows she's healthier than that worst case, MSL might decide to hunker down and try and safeguard the science instrumentation from unnecessary exposure.
#918 by JohnFornaro on 11 Mar, 2013 12:14
Quote from: hop on 10 Mar, 2013 20:23
Quote from: AJA on 10 Mar, 2013 17:27
This is intriguing me. Obviously, there's no external means to determine the position of the arm etc. (I AM ruling out the possibility of reconstructing the positions from the pictures that were beamed back before the rover went into safe mode)
Why are you excluding this? Imaging is a pretty important part of monitoring and verifying the position of the arm.

He seems to be more excluding the reconstruction of the arm position from photographic history from the category "external" means to determine the position of the arm. I took "external" to mean, say, Melvin the Martian taking pix of the arm as a verification.

Quote from: AJA
Furthermore, when the rover goes into safe mode, doesn't it bring the arm and mast into a least risk position as it does...

Quote from: Hop
As Jim says, no chance of this. The first rule of safe mode is to do no harm. If something bad enough to trigger safe mode happens, the rover is not going to be moving the arm around.

I was thinking along Aja's lines of thought here; that if the command to go into "safe mode" were to be issued, that the rover would retract stuff, like extended arms, so as to protect itself. If a sandstorm should come up, the rover wouldn't leave its arm extended.

Quote from: spectre9 on 10 Mar, 2013 21:05
I just don't get it.

How does a flash memory chip corrupt itself after only slight use?

Is radiation that damaging to these chips?

They don't get it either, apparently. So all of this calibration and what have you is a means of figuring out what went wrong.

Quote from: Aja
But if she knows she's healthier than that worst case, MSL might decide to hunker down and try and safeguard the science instrumentation from unnecessary exposure.

That's what I would have thought too.
#919 by hop on 11 Mar, 2013 19:46
Quote from: AJA on 11 Mar, 2013 04:05
You answered this yourself
Quote
... for really accurate positioning they need to be calibrated.

Moreover, the arm might have moved since the last self-shot was taken. And the conditions (temperature etc. - to account for any expansion/contraction) have almost certainly changed.
1) Imaging is capable of giving very accurate position information. At the end of the arms reach, both mastcams have sub millimeter / pixel resolution.
2) They can take new images, once they get the cameras activated...
I have no idea if imaging is required for the current process or not, just saying that you shouldn't necessarily dismiss the idea out of hand.
Quote
My point is that Curiosity is the best source for all this data! Regardless of the variety, number, or scope of the parameters. It seems an awfully roundabout manner to have to read this data, send it to the ground, and then them run a calibration routine and send it back up.
My point was that regardless of you think it should work, it's a fact that the initial arm checkout and activation was a slow process with the ground in the loop. It is definitely not the case that they just sent a "calibrate the arm" command and everything was ready to go. Curiosity has the data, but humans have the brains. As I said before, I don't know if the current recovery process is analogous to the initial activation, but it really shouldn't be surprising that it requires the ground in the loop.

The "we have to tell the rover where the arm is" statement is almost certainly a simplification of a much more complicated engineering process.

It's normal for the process of coming bringing a complicated spacecraft out of safe mode and getting all the systems back up and running to take days or weeks. This is also the first safing of Curiosity on Mars, so they will be going slow and may run into unexpected hitches.
Quote
I was just thinking that the protocols for safe-mode might be different depending on the exact problem faced, as well as what the rover was doing when it occurred.
The point of safe mode is to stay alive and in communication until the ground can figure out the problem. Adding complexity to this raises obvious risks, especially when you are relying on a system that is malfunctioning to diagnose it's own malfunctions. You do *not* want to have a bug in your safe mode code put the vehicle in an unexpected state.