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#780
by
RigelFive
on 24 Nov, 2012 14:55
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Have no idea what this news will be about... If the rumor given was a hint presented as something that is "for the history books". Hope it is simply some new evidence that give dating on the Mars terrain (oldest rocks ever sampled in the solar system). If this news goes astrobiological, precedence says there will be too much controversy.
What is the impact of something dated older than the Earth/Moon???
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#781
by
rdale
on 24 Nov, 2012 15:06
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What is the impact of something dated older than the Earth/Moon???
Big.
However pondering that probably gets a little too far outside of what you can classify as a "MSL Update"
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#782
by
RigelFive
on 24 Nov, 2012 16:12
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No no no. I tried talking about this stuff on one of those non-update threads. Somebody said the conversation was on this thread. This news is so big, it gives you a special dispensation to eminate conjecture on update threads... (Builds the suspense)
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#783
by
meekGee
on 24 Nov, 2012 16:47
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I have to assume that Grotz is dreading that press conference. There are sure to be reporters there from the pop press who will hound him about supposed earth-shaking SAM results. They will try to cross examine him about every word he said. Ugh.
He had it coming. Should be more careful with words.
If you read the transcript, you see that it is very highly edited, and does thing like associate Grotzinger's "it" with some non-Grotzinger content.
This is also how you make an exciting trailer for a boring movie.
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#784
by
Star One
on 24 Nov, 2012 17:50
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I have to assume that Grotz is dreading that press conference. There are sure to be reporters there from the pop press who will hound him about supposed earth-shaking SAM results. They will try to cross examine him about every word he said. Ugh.
He had it coming. Should be more careful with words.
If you read the transcript, you see that it is very highly edited, and does thing like associate Grotzinger's "it" with some non-Grotzinger content.
This is also how you make an exciting trailer for a boring movie.
Just hope it isn't too boring!
Not too bad an article by newspaper standards speculating on what could be announced.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/across-the-universe/2012/nov/23/curiosity-rover-life-mars
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#785
by
fthurber
on 25 Nov, 2012 23:00
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Just hope it isn't too boring!
It is probably quite interesting to geologists but boring / incomprehensible to the public. My bet is on something like carbonates with an unusual C13/C12 ratio. Maybe PAHs or phyllosilicates.
As we all know, PAHs are "organic" but not necessarily biological, actually almost certainly not biological in this case.
The clues are skimpy; all we have are as follows:
1) It was found in loose, wind-borne soil; not a place where complex organics are likely to survive.
2) It was detected by SAM, but SAM has a large array of detectors for various chemicals.
3) It did not show up in the first ChemMin run which means it was part of the amorphous component. I
had assumed that this was volcanic glass, but maybe there is something else mixed in. Can ChemMin detect carbonates or phyllosicates?
4) Neil deGrasse Tyson was dancing in the halls.
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#786
by
hop
on 26 Nov, 2012 01:17
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3) It did not show up in the first ChemMin run which means it was part of the amorphous component.
I wouldn't assume this. It's quite possible Chemin saw some hints of interesting stuff that wasn't mentioned in the press conference because they didn't have a solid interpretation ("wow that looks like **** but it's right at the detection limit" etc.) Also worth noting they have done many Chemcam and some APXS measurements of the same material, without any comment on the results.
Can ChemMin detect carbonates or phyllosicates?
Yes. See
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-012-9905-1/fulltext.htmlAs a reminder, MSL instrument description papers are currently open access here:
http://link.springer.com/journal/11214/170/1/page/1However, after re-reading the original NPR transcript, I'm not convinced there is any specific "big news" at all. For the NPR reporter, the "big news" was mainly a hook to hang his story on, and I suspect Grotzinger would have been more circumspect if he actually saw something really big.
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#787
by
fthurber
on 26 Nov, 2012 12:54
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3) It did not show up in the first ChemMin run which means it was part of the amorphous component.
I wouldn't assume this. It's quite possible Chemin saw some hints of interesting stuff that wasn't mentioned in the press conference because they didn't have a solid interpretation ("wow that looks like **** but it's right at the detection limit" etc.) Also worth noting they have done many Chemcam and some APXS measurements of the same material, without any comment on the results.
Can ChemMin detect carbonates or phyllosicates?
Yes. See http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-012-9905-1/fulltext.html
As a reminder, MSL instrument description papers are currently open access here: http://link.springer.com/journal/11214/170/1/page/1
Good point; there were indeed multiple runs of ChemMin that I found a bit curious at the time. APXS also. Interesting.
Thanks for the ChemMin link; great reading. As with everything about MSL, the more I look into it, the more amazing it seems.
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#788
by
Star One
on 26 Nov, 2012 17:00
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3) It did not show up in the first ChemMin run which means it was part of the amorphous component.
I wouldn't assume this. It's quite possible Chemin saw some hints of interesting stuff that wasn't mentioned in the press conference because they didn't have a solid interpretation ("wow that looks like **** but it's right at the detection limit" etc.) Also worth noting they have done many Chemcam and some APXS measurements of the same material, without any comment on the results.
Can ChemMin detect carbonates or phyllosicates?
Yes. See http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-012-9905-1/fulltext.html
As a reminder, MSL instrument description papers are currently open access here: http://link.springer.com/journal/11214/170/1/page/1
However, after re-reading the original NPR transcript, I'm not convinced there is any specific "big news" at all. For the NPR reporter, the "big news" was mainly a hook to hang his story on, and I suspect Grotzinger would have been more circumspect if he actually saw something really big.
It doesn't matter if that is the case or not because if nothing much is announced there will be only organisation getting the blame by the public and you can bet it will not be the press.
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#789
by
robertross
on 27 Nov, 2012 23:24
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11.27.2012
Regional Dust Storm DissipatingPASADENA, Calif. -- A regional dust storm on Mars, tracked from orbit since Nov. 10, appears to be abating rather than going global.
"During the past week, the regional storm weakened and contracted significantly," said Bruce Cantor of Malin Space Science Systems, San Diego. Cantor uses the Mars Color Imager camera on NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter to monitor storms on the Red Planet.
Effects of the storm on global air-pressure patterns have been detected at ground level by the Rover Environmental Monitoring Station (REMS) on NASA's Mars rover Curiosity.
"We are getting lots of good data about this storm," said Mark Richardson of Ashima Research, Pasadena, Calif. He is a co-investigator both on REMS and on the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter's Mars Climate Sounder instrument, which has been detecting widespread effects of the current storm on atmospheric temperatures.
Researchers anticipate that the unprecedented combination of a near-equatorial weather station at ground level, and daily orbital observations during Mars' dust-storm season, may provide information about why some dust storms grow larger than others.
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=1397
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#790
by
anonymous
on 28 Nov, 2012 12:21
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#791
by
Ares67
on 28 Nov, 2012 12:39
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According to Mashable, the big Curiosity discovery is a big misunderstanding:
http://mashable.com/2012/11/27/curiosity-rover-discovery-npr/
"A big misunderstanding?"
So, Mr. Grotzinger, next time you should remember:
IN SPACE NO ONE CAN HEAR YOU SCREAM
... but down here at NSF we are all ears - especially regarding alien life forms on Mars!
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#792
by
Keeval
on 28 Nov, 2012 19:26
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#793
by
rdale
on 28 Nov, 2012 19:39
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English comments made off the record, translated to Italian, and then back to English probably don't have too much backing
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#794
by
meekGee
on 28 Nov, 2012 20:21
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What could have significance, since this is top-layer sand, is if they find molecules of a type and in a concentration that implies they are currently being produced. Doesn't have to be biological, but will indicate more processes at play.
Would, could, should - we'll find out next week. And in the coming couple of years.
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#795
by
Norm38
on 29 Nov, 2012 16:43
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I was sent this by a former co-worker. Looks like NBC News decided to join in on the hype last night. It's mostly a puff piece, nothing new to report. But strange they decided to fixate on this after it was already walked back and go the "life on mars?" route.
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/50002282/#50002282The JPL guy interviewed made it sound like the announcement most likely would be about the detection of organics.
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#796
by
fthurber
on 29 Nov, 2012 17:45
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3) It did not show up in the first ChemMin run which means it was part of the amorphous component.
I wouldn't assume this. It's quite possible Chemin saw some hints of interesting stuff that wasn't mentioned in the press conference because they didn't have a solid interpretation ("wow that looks like **** but it's right at the detection limit" etc.) Also worth noting they have done many Chemcam and some APXS measurements of the same material, without any comment on the results.
Can ChemMin detect carbonates or phyllosicates?
Yes. See http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-012-9905-1/fulltext.html
I am working through the ChemMin and SAM technical specs now and, yes indeed, ChemMin (and SAM) can detect phyllosilicates (clays). Clays are not well crystallized so, if I am reading it right, their diffraction patterns have broadened peak making detection a little more difficult than fully-crystallized minerals. Statistical methods might have to be used to match the diffraction pattern of some clays or clay mixes. This might explain the multiple runs with ChemMin and exclusion of any mention of clays from the initial announcement.
A followup with SAM and the APXS might have been needed to nail down the clay identification.
Of course this is just speculation. It is probably something entirely different such as some sort of evaporate, carbonates, PAHs, etc.
PAH's would certainly be in line with what Dr. Elachi noted about non-biological organics as would racemic organics.
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#797
by
Star One
on 29 Nov, 2012 17:55
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I was sent this by a former co-worker. Looks like NBC News decided to join in on the hype last night. It's mostly a puff piece, nothing new to report. But strange they decided to fixate on this after it was already walked back and go the "life on mars?" route.
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/50002282/#50002282
The JPL guy interviewed made it sound like the announcement most likely would be about the detection of organics.
Not according to this new press release from the JPL.
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/m/news/index.cfm?release=2012-377Rumors and speculation that there are major new findings from the mission at this early stage are incorrect. The news conference will be an update about first use of the rover's full array of analytical instruments to investigate a drift of sandy soil. One class of substances Curiosity is checking for is organic compounds -- carbon-containing chemicals that can be ingredients for life. At this point in the mission, the instruments on the rover have not detected any definitive evidence of Martian organics.
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#798
by
fthurber
on 29 Nov, 2012 17:59
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Right from JPL:
"At this point in the mission, the instruments on the rover have not detected any definitive evidence of Martian organics."
So much for PAHs...
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#799
by
Star One
on 29 Nov, 2012 18:04
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Right from JPL:
"At this point in the mission, the instruments on the rover have not detected any definitive evidence of Martian organics."
So much for PAHs...
Yes well so much for all this fuss then.
