-
#740
by
notsorandom
on 20 Nov, 2012 19:29
-
Organic compounds would certainly be an exciting find. Lets assume though that is not what was behind the hints in the NPR article. What else could SAM find that would be so interesting yet not related to life?
-
#741
by
schaban
on 20 Nov, 2012 19:47
-
Organic compounds would certainly be an exciting find. Lets assume though that is not what was behind the hints in the NPR article. What else could SAM find that would be so interesting yet not related to life?
He-3?
-
#742
by
hop
on 20 Nov, 2012 20:16
-
Well I have to say that Grotzinger didn't sound that exited. maybe just his style. The only direct quote about it is "This data is gonna be one for the history books", which could be anything. Given the "exiting" news release about methane, "sorry, it's not there", I wouldn't hold out hopes that it actually is something earth-shattering.
Agreed. Two things people should remember before getting caught up in the speculative hype:
1) Given the capabilities of the SAM instrument suit, *any* successful observation is going to technically be "one for the history books", and has very goods odds of revealing something unexpected.
2) "Exciting" scientists doesn't mean earth shattering for the general public. Anything unexpected (see #1) is likely to be exciting for the people who study mars.
-
#743
by
Robotbeat
on 20 Nov, 2012 20:23
-
Well I have to say that Grotzinger didn't sound that exited. maybe just his style. The only direct quote about it is "This data is gonna be one for the history books", which could be anything. Given the "exiting" news release about methane, "sorry, it's not there", I wouldn't hold out hopes that it actually is something earth-shattering.
Agreed. Two things people should remember before getting caught up in the speculative hype:
1) Given the capabilities of the SAM instrument suit, *any* successful observation is going to technically be "one for the history books", and has very goods odds of revealing something unexpected.
2) "Exciting" scientists doesn't mean earth shattering for the general public. Anything unexpected (see #1) is likely to be exciting for the people who study mars.
Neil deGrasse Tyson dancing in that hallways? It has got to be more interesting than just something unexpected or a successful observation.
-
#744
by
hop
on 20 Nov, 2012 20:48
-
It has got to be more interesting than just something unexpected or a successful observation.
Uh huh
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1297The actual discovery which spawned that rumor fest is a pretty good example. Scientists: "Ooh, perchlorate, that's interesting!", public "huh, what?"
I did not mean to imply a successful observation would be news itself. Rather, SAM is such a sensitive instrument that the first successful observation is quite likely to turn up *something* unexpected.
-
#745
by
Robotbeat
on 20 Nov, 2012 21:24
-
-
#746
by
meekGee
on 20 Nov, 2012 22:41
-
Delving even deeper into the tea-leaves:
Top surface sand is both very simple, and wind-borne. So if there's something exciting in it, it doesn't have to be local.
The most likely reason it ended up at the geology department is that they had a session already scheduled at the AGU meeting, and decided to use it as the announcement platform, and so they have to have geology peers go over it first.
They did send it far and wide for review, and that's worth noting.
I can wait two weeks, no problem.
-
#747
by
fthurber
on 20 Nov, 2012 23:01
-
I was thinking something more prosaic like carbonate or shale or clay. But there is a problem with that; it should have shown up in ChemMin runs...or maybe that is why they had multiple ChemMin runs.
So the scanty evidence points to simple organics but it is hard to believe that organics could survive in the sands of Mars being blown around and exposed to UV and other radiation plus possible perchlorates. I could see organics being drilled out of a clay outcrop but not in wind-borne dust. Odd...
-
#748
by
robertross
on 20 Nov, 2012 23:05
-
Moving on to regular programming...
11.20.2012
Curiosity Rover Preparing for Thanksgiving ActivitiesPASADENA, Calif. -- NASA's Mars rover Curiosity completed a touch-and-go inspection of one rock on Sunday, Nov. 18, then pivoted and, on the same day, drove toward a Thanksgiving overlook location.
Last week, Curiosity drove for the first time after spending several weeks in soil-scooping activities at one location. On Friday, Nov. 16, the rover drove 6.2 feet (1.9 meters) to get within arm's reach of a rock called "Rocknest 3." On Sunday, it touched that rock with the Alpha Particle X-Ray Spectrometer (APXS) on its arm, and took two 10-minute APXS readings of data about the chemical elements in the rock. Then Curiosity stowed its arm and drove 83 feet (25.3 meters) eastward toward a target called "Point Lake."
"We have done touches before, and we've done goes before, but this is our first 'touch-and-go' on the same day," said Curiosity Mission Manager Michael Watkins of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. "It is a good sign that the rover team is getting comfortable with more complex operational planning, which will serve us well in the weeks ahead."
During a Thanksgiving break, the team will use Curiosity's Mast Camera (Mastcam) from Point Lake to examine possible routes and targets to the east. A priority is to choose a rock for the first use of the rover's hammering drill, which will collect samples of powder from rock interiors.
Although Curiosity has departed the Rocknest patch of windblown sand and dust where it scooped up soil samples in recent weeks, the sample-handling mechanism on the rover's arm is still holding some soil from the fifth and final scoop collected at Rocknest. The rover is carrying this sample so it can be available for analysis by instruments within the rover if scientists choose that option in coming days.
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/news/whatsnew/index.cfm?FuseAction=ShowNews&NewsID=1394
-
#749
by
Hungry4info3
on 21 Nov, 2012 02:24
-
So the scanty evidence points to simple organics but it is hard to believe that organics could survive in the sands of Mars being blown around and exposed to UV and other radiation plus possible perchlorates. I could see organics being drilled out of a clay outcrop but not in wind-borne dust. Odd...
Not saying I believe that it's organics, but the sand dune was not really an easily mobile, wind-blown dune. Remember it had a clumpy structure (was especially visible in the trenches after scooping). The Rocknest sand dune was not simply a loose pile of sand recently blown into position. It had been there, in that position, for a while.
-
#750
by
meekGee
on 21 Nov, 2012 03:32
-
Well, the PR says:
"Although Curiosity has departed the Rocknest patch of windblown sand and dust where it scooped up soil samples in recent weeks"
(which in and of itself is odd phrasing - why add "windblown", and why emphasize "dust"? would have been more natural, in the context of the PR, to say "departed the Rocknest sand patch where it scooped....")
I do agree this did not look like completely loose sand - it was sort of in-betweenish sand - just a bit clumpy.
But sand, by its very nature, was not formed in-situ, and the dune shape does imply that it is being transported.
Here's an idea:
What if the clumpiness is telling them that there's still an underflow going on? That would make it a geological finding. SAM might have detected a concentration of volatile in it? Maybe simple humidity? That will be enough to pass the "Tyson Dance Test" without making it about organics.
This is also calibrated to the level of "this is for the textbooks" better than the discovery of anything biological in origin.
Well, I definitely have myself convinced. That's always a good start..
-
#751
by
hop
on 21 Nov, 2012 04:36
-
Not saying I believe that it's organics, but the sand dune was not really an easily mobile, wind-blown dune. Remember it had a clumpy structure (was especially visible in the trenches after scooping).
Very similar behavior has been seen in dust accumulations investigated by other missions.
The Rocknest sand dune was not simply a loose pile of sand recently blown into position. It had been there, in that position, for a while.
AFAIK mechanism that causes these crusts isn't fully understood, so I would be wary of reading too much into it. In any case, rocknest must be quite recent geologically, meaning that all the conditions fthurber mentioned would still apply even if it's old in human terms.
One note from the Chemin press conference about this material (
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/26549125) roughly 50% of it was "poorly crystalline" or amorphous and not readily identifiable by Chemin. There was a suggestion that some of this might be related to the "interaction of water with rocks".
-
#752
by
iamlucky13
on 21 Nov, 2012 04:48
-
Neil deGrasse Tyson dancing in that hallways? It has got to be more interesting than just something unexpected or a successful observation.
Keep in mind we're talking about Tyson here. He's a very outwardly enthusiastic person, which is a big part of why he became such a public figure. He's the sort who can get really excited about things that seem trivial to other people.
Organic compounds would certainly be an exciting find. Lets assume though that is not what was behind the hints in the NPR article. What else could SAM find that would be so interesting yet not related to life?
He-3?
No. He-3 would not be a surprise unless there's something inexplicable going on, and it's unimportant at this point in time.
It has got to be more interesting than just something unexpected or a successful observation.
Uh huh http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1297
The actual discovery which spawned that rumor fest is a pretty good example. Scientists: "Ooh, perchlorate, that's interesting!", public "huh, what?"
I did not mean to imply a successful observation would be news itself. Rather, SAM is such a sensitive instrument that the first successful observation is quite likely to turn up *something* unexpected.
The Phoenix perchlorate findings have been prominent in my mind since reading the NPR article. Not saying that it's more perchlorates. Just that I strongly suspect most people will not be "dancing in the hallways" when they hear.
-
#753
by
fthurber
on 21 Nov, 2012 11:03
-
Here's an idea:
What if the clumpiness is telling them that there's still an underflow going on? That would make it a geological finding. SAM might have detected a concentration of volatile in it? Maybe simple humidity? That will be enough to pass the "Tyson Dance Test" without making it about organics.
Good point.
I have to wonder if the crust is salt. I have seen this many times at the beach; the top few millimeters of sand dunes are cemented together with salt evaporate.
This would be big news but not what most people want to hear. I sort of doubt it passes the dance test though...
Another problem is that SAM cannot detect salt so I am back to the question of what kind of organics can survive on the surface of Mars. PAHs?
-
#754
by
meekGee
on 21 Nov, 2012 14:42
-
Yes - I was telling my wife about how such a flow might be very briny, and realized that:
a) salts might retain some humidity in the off season
b) the way the salt crystallized can tell them a lot about the flow. Large or small crystals, independent crystals or formed around sand particles, are they linked to each other to form larger solids, etc.
c) the chemical composition of the salts
Regarding SAM, does anyone know how they vaporize the sample, and at what temperature?
A sample with humidity can give a reading even before it is vaporized - if they operate in this mode (i.e. sniffing a cold sample)
-
#755
by
Bubbinski
on 21 Nov, 2012 14:49
-
There's an article making the rounds, that is in French, quoting the co-investigator of SAM as saying there was no revolutionary discovery to announce:
http://www.cieletespace.fr/node/9823I don't know French but I put it in an online translator and that's what it seems to say.
-
#756
by
Danderman
on 21 Nov, 2012 14:59
-
Yes - I was telling my wife about how such a flow might be very briny, and realized that:
a) salts might retain some humidity in the off season
b) the way the salt crystallized can tell them a lot about the flow. Large or small crystals, independent crystals or formed around sand particles, are they linked to each other to form larger solids, etc.
c) the chemical composition of the salts
Regarding SAM, does anyone know how they vaporize the sample, and at what temperature?
A sample with humidity can give a reading even before it is vaporized - if they operate in this mode (i.e. sniffing a cold sample)
I would imagine that they probably picked up some indirect evidence of recent water flow from the sample. That would get them all excited, but wouldn't do much for the General Public.
-
#757
by
Space Pete
on 21 Nov, 2012 15:00
-
From NASA Deputy Associate Administrator for Communications Bob Jacobs (@bnjacobs) via Twitter:
There's out of control parroting regarding Mars Curiosity. The "one for the history books" refers to the mission, not any one new discovery.
-
#758
by
meekGee
on 21 Nov, 2012 15:21
-
oh well.
It was fun there for a day though....
-
#759
by
Garrett
on 21 Nov, 2012 15:41
-
There's an article making the rounds, that is in French, quoting the co-investigator of SAM as saying there was no revolutionary discovery to announce:
http://www.cieletespace.fr/node/9823
I don't know French but I put it in an online translator and that's what it seems to say.
I'll translate some of it:
Original French: « Rien de tout cela ! » martèle le Français Michel Cabane, coresponsable scientifique de l'instrument SAM. « Nous ne comprenons pas ce qu'il se passe. Nous n'avons absolument aucune nouvelle éclatante à annoncer ! »
Selon le chercheur du Latmos, SAM fonctionne très bien et fournit des signaux. Mais il n'y a « rien » pour le moment dans les données qui puisse justifier un tel engouement. Les premiers résultats de SAM devraient être annoncés lors du colloque de l'Union géophysique américaine, du 3 au 7 décembre 2012, à San Francisco.
My translation: "Nothing like that at all", insists Frenchman Michael Cabane, scientific co-investigator of the SAM instrument. "We can't understand what this is all about. We have absolutely no dazzling news to announce!"
According to the Latmos researcher, SAM is working fine and is returning data. But there is "nothing" for the moment in the data that could justify such hype. The first SAM results should be announced during the American Geophysical Union's Fall Meeting , from the 3rd to 7th December 2012 in San Francisco.
