Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012

[erioladastra]

Phase I of certification will start on February 2013. Phase 2 of certification will include at least one ISS commercial crew flight. Phase I of the certification period will have 2 to 4 companies. Phase II will only have 1 or 2 companies.

Not clear to me what happens to the CCiCap optional milestones period.

Answering my own question, Gerst explains how the certification part and the CCiCap (base period and optional) work at the 52 and 54 minutes mark of the audio of the August 3rd press conference (see the link to the audio here):
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29587.msg937056#msg937056

Essentially, CCiCap (base and optional phases) and the certification period (phase I and II) are concurrent activities.  It is now a lot easier to understand what Gerst meant in his answers on August 3rd now that we know what he means by "contract part" (he meant the certification part). 

It is easy to guess that only the companies that are chosen for phase 2 of the certification will get their CCiCap optional selections exercised in 2014. In a Nutshell, NASA will downselect to 1 or 2 providers in 2014 after the CCiCap base period ends. NASA might downselect again to one provider when it awards the CTS contract.

Correct, though the competition in 2014 will be open to anyone.  The odds that anyone not in Phase 1 and 2 could be selected is slim, but it will be competed that way.

[yg1968]

erioladastra,

Thanks for your answers. I have a couple more questions about CCiCap and the certification process.

-I noticed that there is a test flight to the ISS for phase 2 of the certification period. I also noticed in the SAAs that some companies such as Boeing and SpaceX have a test flight to the ISS as part of their CCiCap optional milestones. How will that work? Will the company be paid twice for the same flight to the ISS?

-Will phase 2 of the certification process also have very little money attached to it (except for the optional ISS flights)?

Thanks.

[yg1968]

Here is an article on the certification forum briefing:
http://www.spacenews.com/civil/120809-comm-crew-safety-certification.html

[erioladastra]

erioladastra,

Thanks for your answers. I have a couple more questions about CCiCap and the certification process.

-I noticed that there is a test flight to the ISS for phase 2 of the certification period. I also noticed in the SAAs that some companies such as Boeing and SpaceX have a test flight to the ISS as part of their CCiCap optional milestones. How will that work? Will the company be paid twice for the same flight to the ISS?

-Will phase 2 of the certification process also have very little money attached to it (except for the optional ISS flights)?

Thanks.

- No, the company will not be paid twice.  A flight to the ISS for certification will be required for a services contract.  If they do it under iCAP it might help them towards certification, but they can't cash in twice.

- TBD

[yg1968]

Thanks, erioladastra . I have a few more questions:

-My first question is about the CCiCap optional milestones phase. Ed Mango said at the August 8th forum that it was originally put in place in case that the certification period was late. But he didn't say why it was there now. What is the purpose of CCiCap optional milestones now that we know that certification starts in February 2013?

-Do we know for sure that there will be a CCiCap optional milestones phase?

-It is also obvious from the summary in each of the SAAs (and from comments from Gerst and McAlister on August 3rd) that only the optimal CCicap optional milestones were included as part of the agreements. Why were fixed funding ($400M per year) CCiCap optional milestones not included in the SAAs?

[yg1968]

This is today at 1 p.m. (local, Eastern time).

See the following link for the webcast:
http://commercialcrew.nasa.gov/page.cfm?ID=32&CFID=138024&CFTOKEN=31246015

The video of the webcast is now archived. The transcript is also available. See link above.

[erioladastra]

Thanks, erioladastra . I have a few more questions:

-My first question is about the CCiCap optional milestones phase. Ed Mango said at the August 8th forum that it was originally put in place in case that the certification period was late. But he didn't say why it was there now. What is the purpose of CCiCap optional milestones now that we know that certification starts in February 2013?

-Do we know for sure that there will be a CCiCap optional milestones phase?

-It is also obvious from the summary in each of the SAAs (and from comments from Gerst and McAlister on August 3rd) that only the optimal CCicap optional milestones were included as part of the agreements. Why were fixed funding ($400M per year) CCiCap optional milestones not included in the SAAs?

Good questions:

- Some of the rationale is historical.  It was initially envisioned to provide flexibility in a variable and unpredictable funding profile from congress.  It also addressed the certification timing.  But by the time it all got rolled out, people got smarter and were able to overlap CPC and iCAP.  And it still provides flexibility.

- No, but it is highly highly likely.  But it does depend on what congress funds CCP at.

-  Since I was not involved in the selection process I can't answer that, sorry.

[joek]

@erioladastra -- Thanks very much for your insight.  A couple questions that arise after some additional examination of the strategy as described in the recent forum presentations and documents...

It appears that mid-CY-2014 is something of a make-or-break or confluence for down-select?  Presumably...

1. Progress at the end of the CCiCap base period will provide NASA sufficient insight into who are likely to be viable contenders for certification?

2. Completion of Certification Phase 1 will provide NASA sufficient insight into certification costs, schedule, and readiness?

3. The above should also provide NASA sufficient insight into selection of CCiCap optional milestones needed to complete/accelerate development work [necessary for certification] under CCiCap optional milestones (?) in parallel with certification work?

Thanks again.

[joek]

A couple more items now available at the CCP forum:
August 8 webcast archive
August 8 webcast transcript

edit: pdf of transcript attached.

[erioladastra]

@erioladastra -- Thanks very much for your insight.  A couple questions that arise after some additional examination of the strategy as described in the recent forum presentations and documents...

It appears that mid-CY-2014 is something of a make-or-break or confluence for down-select?  Presumably...

1. Progress at the end of the CCiCap base period will provide NASA sufficient insight into who are likely to be viable contenders for certification?

2. Completion of Certification Phase 1 will provide NASA sufficient insight into certification costs, schedule, and readiness?

3. The above should also provide NASA sufficient insight into selection of CCiCap optional milestones needed to complete/accelerate development work [necessary for certification] under CCiCap optional milestones (?) in parallel with certification work?

Thanks again.

1.  In theory.  But since the selection board takes a long time, and something will have to be selected at the end of iCAP (TBD if at the end of 21 months or after option but the preferred is at the end of 21 months), a decision will have to be based on progress to that point.  But that is all being thought about still.

2 & 3.  Likely.  Hopefully.

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

Did anyone besides me see the CTS ISS services contract period start Q4 2015?

Edited for clarity.

[joek]

Did anyone besides me see the CTS ISS services contract period start Q4 2015?

Last time I saw 2015 mentioned for start of ISS commercial crew service was a May 2010 OMB report.  In Jun 2011 a NASA OIG report showed it late-CY2016 (note additional Soyuz seats had recently been purchased through mid-CY2016).  Then there was another (CCiDC presentation I think) which showed mid-FY2017/early-CY2017.  Latest CCiCap presentation shows Q4-FY2017/Q1-CY2018 Q4-CY2017/Q1-FY2018.  (Caveat: they're shown as "notional".)

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

Did anyone besides me see the CTS ISS services contract period start Q4 2015?

Last time I saw 2015 mentioned for start of ISS commercial crew service was a May 2010 OMB report.  In Jun 2011 a NASA OIG report showed it late-CY2016 (note additional Soyuz seats had recently been purchased through mid-CY2016).  Then there was another (CCiDC presentation I think) which showed mid-FY2017/early-CY2017.  Latest CCiCap presentation shows Q4-FY2017/Q1-CY2018 Q4-CY2017/Q1-FY2018.  (Caveat: they're shown as "notional".)

My bad that was RFP start Q4 CY 2015.

[yg1968]

I found this July 24th presentation by Phil McAlister that also relates to the same topic:
http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/672219main_3%20-%2020120724%20McAlister%20-%20Commercial%20Status_20120724_508.pdf

The minutes to the July 23-24 NAC Commercial Space Committee discuss certification on pages 10 and 11:
http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/677122main_NAC%20CSC%20Meeting%20Report_July%2023-24_2012_508.pdf

Mr. Holloway commented that to certify a vehicle requires a verification testing program to test the components on the ground and then a limited flight test program. Mr. McAlister replied that that is what is planned; it will be done under a FAR-based contract.

In response to a question, Mr. McAlister stated that the program has not yet determined whether the certification for parts will be at the subsystem level or the total vehicle level. He said he would talk to the committees about that at a later date.

[yg1968]

Here is an article on certification on NASA's website:
http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/commercial/crew/ccp_certification_rollout.html

[yg1968]

August 13 2012 Certification Products Contract (CPC) Synopsis:
http://prod.nais.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/eps/synopsis.cgi?acqid=153061

A special website has been created for CPC:
http://procurement.jsc.nasa.gov/ccpcpc/

Here is the schedule for CPC:

Synopsis Released   8/10/12   
Request for Proposals Released   9/12/12   
Pre-Proposal Conference   9/19/12   
Initial Proposals Due   10/12/12   
Contract Award   2/7/13

[yg1968]

One interesting note about the CPC award is that it will end in July 2014 whereas the CCiCap base period ends in May 2014. There is a gap of a couple of months between the end of the two programs for some reason.

[erioladastra]

One interesting note about the CPC award is that it will end in July 2014 whereas the CCiCap base period ends in May 2014. There is a gap of a couple of months between the end of the two programs for some reason.

No real gap.  First recall the iCAP base period is through April.  Optional can go past.  Plus CPC is not starting the same day as iCAP did so some delay there.  Plus CPC is to help bridge the gap to certification int he next phase.  No issue here.

[yg1968]

One interesting note about the CPC award is that it will end in July 2014 whereas the CCiCap base period ends in May 2014. There is a gap of a couple of months between the end of the two programs for some reason.

No real gap.  First recall the iCAP base period is through April.  Optional can go past.  Plus CPC is not starting the same day as iCAP did so some delay there.  Plus CPC is to help bridge the gap to certification int he next phase.  No issue here.

I didn't think that it was an issue. I just thought that it was interesting. I think that it could be a positive aspect especially if it allows NASA to exercise a few additional optional milestones for all three companies prior to making another down selection. Hopefully, this will give Dream Chaser enough time to get to CDR.

[erioladastra]

One interesting note about the CPC award is that it will end in July 2014 whereas the CCiCap base period ends in May 2014. There is a gap of a couple of months between the end of the two programs for some reason.

No real gap.  First recall the iCAP base period is through April.  Optional can go past.  Plus CPC is not starting the same day as iCAP did so some delay there.  Plus CPC is to help bridge the gap to certification int he next phase.  No issue here.

I didn't think that it was an issue. I just thought that it was interesting. I think that it could be a positive aspect especially if it allows NASA to exercise a few additional optional milestones for all three companies prior to making another down selection. Hopefully, this will give Dream Chaser enough time to get to CDR.

Unless SNC find a lot of money to pony up it is very unlikely they can get to CDR.  They are already well behind the others and getting half the funding for a complicated vehicle just doesn't make it likely.  They have been put on the back burner should Boeing and SpaceX flame out.