Author Topic: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012  (Read 40843 times)

Offline AnalogMan

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Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« on: 08/03/2012 06:52 pm »
As mentioned in today's CCiCAP press conference, here is the announcement of the forum to discuss CCP strategy for certification and future procurements.

Commercial Crew Program Forum
Synopsis - August 03, 2012
Solicitation Number:   CCP-FORUM-STATUS-AUGUST-2012

http://prod.nais.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/eps/synopsis.cgi?acqid=152839
https://www.fbo.gov/spg/NASA/KSC/OPDC20220/CCP-FORUM-STATUS-AUGUST-2012/listing.html

Description
The National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) will present an updated status of the Commercial Crew Program (CCP) strategy on Wednesday, August 8, 2012. The Forum will be held at the Press Site at Kennedy Space Center from 1:00 p.m. to 2:00 p.m.

The Program Forum’s topics will include:

  • An update from Program Forum held February 7, 2012
  • Overview of Commercial Crew Certification Strategy
  • Commercial Crew Program’s (CCP) intentions for future procurement opportunities
      - Two Phase Acquisition Approach for Certification
      - Phase 1 - Certification Products Contract (CPC) Procurement Summary
  • Short clarification question and answer session

The Commercial Crew Program will accept clarification questions during the forum webcast from attendees and via teleconference:

United States Toll Free: 888-397-7821 Passcode: 3180825

Webcast and teleconference participation is encouraged. However, individuals may attend the forum by pre-registering online. Seating is limited and badging will be required. Carefully review the badging instructions below if you will need a temporary access badge. There is no fee to attend.

WEBCAST: NASA will broadcast the Program Forum online via webcast. Pre-registration is not required for webcast participation. Interested parties are encouraged to participate via webcast. An unlimited number of participants can view the live webcast with an ability to ask real-time questions via teleconference. For webcast details visit the Program Forum tab on the following page on the day of the event: http://commercialcrew.nasa.gov

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #1 on: 08/08/2012 01:43 pm »
This is today at 1 p.m. (local, Eastern time).

See the following link for the webcast:
http://commercialcrew.nasa.gov/page.cfm?ID=32&CFID=138024&CFTOKEN=31246015
« Last Edit: 08/08/2012 01:45 pm by yg1968 »

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #2 on: 08/08/2012 04:23 pm »
Presentation to go with the forum webcast has been posted (note its in .pptx format):

http://commercialcrew.nasa.gov/document_file_get.cfm?docid=636

[pdf version attached]

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #3 on: 08/08/2012 04:45 pm »
VLC compatible link for webcast:

mms://ks-kdc-wm-p.ndc.nasa.gov/ch7

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #4 on: 08/08/2012 05:23 pm »
Phase I of certification will start on February 2013. Phase 2 of certification will include at least one ISS commercial crew flight. Phase I of the certification period will have 2 to 4 companies. Phase II will only have 1 or 2 companies.

Not clear to me what happens to the CCiCap optional milestones period.
« Last Edit: 08/09/2012 03:01 am by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #5 on: 08/08/2012 05:35 pm »
There was almost no questions from reporters... I tried to phone-in to ask a question but it didn't work.
« Last Edit: 08/08/2012 05:40 pm by yg1968 »

Offline manboy

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #6 on: 08/08/2012 06:09 pm »
There was almost no questions from reporters... I tried to phone-in to ask a question but it didn't work.
I'm really curious about NDS, although I've heard they've made a lot of progress on it but I haven't seen any hardware pictures since 2009.
« Last Edit: 08/10/2012 06:14 am by manboy »
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #7 on: 08/08/2012 06:12 pm »
What's NDS?

Offline Jason1701

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #8 on: 08/08/2012 06:35 pm »
NASA Docking System

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #9 on: 08/08/2012 08:39 pm »
CCP Strategy White Paper:
http://commercialcrew.nasa.gov/document_file_get.cfm?docID=637

Quote
To provide an incentive to any commercial provider who is successful in achieving CTS Certification, the Phase 2 contract will include, as options, a nominal number of crewed missions to the ISS following successful CTS Certification. NASA believes that having up to two contractors through Phase 2 would provide significant advantages for insuring a safe and affordable CTS through competition. The ultimate number of awards will be driven by technical maturity, funding availability, and mission needs.
« Last Edit: 08/08/2012 08:55 pm by yg1968 »

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #10 on: 08/08/2012 08:58 pm »
CCP Strategy White Paper:
http://commercialcrew.nasa.gov/document_file_get.cfm?docID=637

Quote
To provide an incentive to any commercial provider who is successful in achieving CTS Certification, the Phase 2 contract will include, as options, a nominal number of crewed missions to the ISS following successful CTS Certification. NASA believes that having up to
two contractors through Phase 2 would provide significant advantages for insuring a safe and affordable CTS through competition. The ultimate number of awards will be driven by technical maturity, funding availability, and mission needs.

You beat me to it!

I also noticed that the "ISS Services Contract", which provides for missions every 6 months and is the long-term contract, is marked as "likely single award" in figure 2.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #11 on: 08/08/2012 09:03 pm »
I also noticed that the "ISS Services Contract", which provides for missions every 6 months and is the long-term contract, is marked as "likely single award" in figure 2.

I hadn't noticed that. I can't say that I like that. NASA has a lot of time to change their mind but I would prefer if they would have combined cargo and crew (giving each provider a better business case) instead of downselecting to only one commercial crew provider. If they don't want to combine both cargo and crew contract, they could first award the CRS-2 contracts prior to the CTS one(s). NASA is likely to get better prices for the CTS contract(s) from companies that also win a CRS-2 contract.
« Last Edit: 08/08/2012 09:19 pm by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #12 on: 08/09/2012 02:43 am »
I found this July 24th presentation by Phil McAlister that also relates to the same topic:
http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/672219main_3%20-%2020120724%20McAlister%20-%20Commercial%20Status_20120724_508.pdf

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #13 on: 08/09/2012 04:50 am »
Phase I of certification will start on February 2013. Phase 2 of certification will include at least one ISS commercial crew flight. Phase I of the certification period will have 2 to 4 companies. Phase II will only have 1 or 2 companies.

Not clear to me what happens to the CCiCap optional milestones period.

Answering my own question, Gerst explains how the certification part and the CCiCap (base period and optional) work at the 52 and 54 minutes mark of the audio of the August 3rd press conference (see the link to the audio here):
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29587.msg937056#msg937056

Essentially, CCiCap (base and optional phases) and the certification period (phase I and II) are concurrent activities.  It is now a lot easier to understand what Gerst meant in his answers on August 3rd now that we know what he means by "contract part" (he meant the certification part). 

It is easy to guess that only the companies that are chosen for phase 2 of the certification will get their CCiCap optional selections exercised in 2014. In a nutshell, NASA will downselect to 1 or 2 providers in 2014 after the CCiCap base period ends. NASA might downselect again to one provider when it awards the CTS contract.
« Last Edit: 08/09/2012 02:43 pm by yg1968 »

Offline joek

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #14 on: 08/09/2012 05:34 am »
Or to put it another way: After the Certification Products Contracts ("Phase 1") are completed, which run concurrently with CCiCap base period; which is a prerequisite to the Certification Contracts ("Phase 2"), which will run concurrently with CCiCap optional period, and which will overlap the ISS Services Contract.  The latter is interesting given...
Quote
To provide an incentive to any commercial provider who is successful in achieving CTS Certification, the Phase 2 contractw ill include, as options, a nominal number of crewed missions to the ISS following successful CTS Certification.
...which could help maintain and extend competitive pressure through mid-2017 even if there is a down-select to one provider for the ISS Service Contract in early 2016.

p.s. Thanks all for posting the notices and docs.
« Last Edit: 08/09/2012 05:35 am by joek »

Offline Go4TLI

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #15 on: 08/09/2012 05:39 am »
The elephant in the room is the cost of that if there are not any other customers or even a significant number of other customers.

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #16 on: 08/09/2012 01:47 pm »
Or to put it another way: After the Certification Products Contracts ("Phase 1") are completed, which run concurrently with CCiCap base period; which is a prerequisite to the Certification Contracts ("Phase 2"), which will run concurrently with CCiCap optional period, and which will overlap the ISS Services Contract.  The latter is interesting given...
Quote
To provide an incentive to any commercial provider who is successful in achieving CTS Certification, the Phase 2 contractw ill include, as options, a nominal number of crewed missions to the ISS following successful CTS Certification.
...which could help maintain and extend competitive pressure through mid-2017 even if there is a down-select to one provider for the ISS Service Contract in early 2016.

p.s. Thanks all for posting the notices and docs.

On this topic, it is not clear if the optional ISS missions under phase 2 of the certification period would carry NASA astronauts.
« Last Edit: 08/09/2012 02:04 pm by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #17 on: 08/09/2012 02:12 pm »
The elephant in the room is the cost of that if there are not any other customers or even a significant number of other customers.

That's why I would expect that a company that doesn't get a CTS award might decide to drop out of phase 2 of the certification. Although, NASA could offer optional certification ISS missions as a consolation price to the second place finisher.
« Last Edit: 08/09/2012 02:30 pm by yg1968 »

Offline erioladastra

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #18 on: 08/09/2012 02:13 pm »
Or to put it another way: After the Certification Products Contracts ("Phase 1") are completed, which run concurrently with CCiCap base period; which is a prerequisite to the Certification Contracts ("Phase 2"), which will run concurrently with CCiCap optional period, and which will overlap the ISS Services Contract.  The latter is interesting given...
Quote
To provide an incentive to any commercial provider who is successful in achieving CTS Certification, the Phase 2 contractw ill include, as options, a nominal number of crewed missions to the ISS following successful CTS Certification.
...which could help maintain and extend competitive pressure through mid-2017 even if there is a down-select to one provider for the ISS Service Contract in early 2016.

p.s. Thanks all for posting the notices and docs.

On this topic, it is not clear if the optional ISS missions under phase 2 of the certification period would carry NASA astronauts.

Officially it will NOT be NASA astronauts until it is certified.  reality may be different, but we will see.

Offline erioladastra

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Re: Commercial Crew Program Forum - Aug 8, 2012
« Reply #19 on: 08/09/2012 02:15 pm »
I also noticed that the "ISS Services Contract", which provides for missions every 6 months and is the long-term contract, is marked as "likely single award" in figure 2.

I hadn't noticed that. I can't say that I like that. NASA has a lot of time to change their mind but I would prefer if they would have combined cargo and crew (giving each provider a better business case) instead of downselecting to only one commercial crew provider. If they don't want to combine both cargo and crew contract, they could first award the CRS-2 contracts prior to the CTS one(s). NASA is likely to get better prices for the CTS contract(s) from companies that also win a CRS-2 contract.

There are a lot of issues here, not the least that there is still concern with the impressive, but upstart Space-X being able to provide and not be over confident.  The path forward actually provides the most options.  NASA could combine cargo and crew.  Or not.  There is, as you note, lots of time, but the reality is that one company will likely only be selected for crew.  It could be SpaceX (crew + cargo) or Boeing (crew only, though CST can do cargo as well).  But the fund are not likely to support both.

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