The CCiCAP Award (PRE- and Post-AWARD DISCUSSION) Thread

[joek]

That makes much more sense if SpaceX got the partial, the article reported they only got $75 million to upgrade the Dragon where CST-100 got $131 million and SNC got $125 million.

Equating $ with full vs. partial award may be misleading.  The operative question is: How much money do each of the contestants need from NASA to achieve the program goals?  If, by those numbers, e.g., SpaceX needs $75M, Boeing needs $131M, and SNC needs $250M, then SpaceX = 1.0, Boeing = 1.0, SNC = 0.5.

Haha.. logic only a politician would love.

Hehe.. Or an engineer.

No, it is the money and not the need.  NASA has a pot of money and it will be split into 2/5, 2/5 and 1/5. 

Interesting.  While I understand there is a fixed pot of money, the CCiCap solicitation suggests the $ amount of awards are based on several criteria, not a simple fractional division?

[Jason1701]

If true, HUGELY happy ATK didn't get the award, that's my main statement.

Let's make it happen! The ISS needs this capability

I don't know why anyone would say that. All of them brought something to the table

Yep, Liberty would have had the largest payload for a man rated vehicle but the majority of enthusiasts just can't get past their ATK hate.

If all you care about is payload. And don't care about price, design maturity, experience, honesty, or domestic capability.

The lack of award will cause ATK to play more to their strengths, which is good for everyone, IMHO. ATK's Athena III (which I think was their COTS proposal?) is a much more competitive proposal, IMHO, and would improve on price, design maturity, experience, honesty, AND domestic capability.

Liberty could have delivered combined crew AND significant cargo cheaper because a 2nd rocket wouldn't have needed to be flown for cargo. SpaceX was quoting $140m for just delivering crew which is not exactly cheap.

No, $140M for seven crew is very cheap.

[QuantumG]

Liberty could have delivered combined crew AND significant cargo cheaper because a 2nd rocket wouldn't have needed to be flown for cargo. SpaceX was quoting $140m for just delivering crew which is not exactly cheap.

No, $140M for seven crew is very cheap.

I agree with both of you: NASA won't use all the seats, they'll fill the remaining space with cargo.

[Downix]

If true, HUGELY happy ATK didn't get the award, that's my main statement.

Let's make it happen! The ISS needs this capability

I don't know why anyone would say that. All of them brought something to the table

Yep, Liberty would have had the largest payload for a man rated vehicle but the majority of enthusiasts just can't get past their ATK hate.

If all you care about is payload. And don't care about price, design maturity, experience, honesty, or domestic capability.

The lack of award will cause ATK to play more to their strengths, which is good for everyone, IMHO. ATK's Athena III (which I think was their COTS proposal?) is a much more competitive proposal, IMHO, and would improve on price, design maturity, experience, honesty, AND domestic capability.

Liberty could have delivered combined crew AND significant cargo cheaper because a 2nd rocket wouldn't have needed to be flown for cargo. SpaceX was quoting $140m for just delivering crew which is not exactly cheap.

No, $140M for seven crew is very cheap.

$140m is for 0 crew. A crew vehicle would be more expensive.

[QuantumG]

No, $140M for seven crew is very cheap.

$140m is for 0 crew. A crew vehicle would be more expensive.

While I don't doubt you're right, I believe he got the $140M from Elon Musk's Augustine presentation, and Gwynne Shotwell's Congressional testimony. So far it's the only numbers that have been provided.

[kirghizstan]

NASA obviously was just waiting for the results of the NSF poll.

You mean NBC was waiting for the results of the poll

[simonbp]

I agree with both of you: NASA won't use all the seats, they'll fill the remaining space with cargo.

Maybe. Dragon (unmanned) and Cygnus will cover most of the cargo quite cheaply. IMHO, the extra seats will be short-duration visitors working on/installing/retrieving experiments on station.

[QuantumG]

Maybe. Dragon (unmanned) and Cygnus will cover most of the cargo quite cheaply. IMHO, the extra seats will be short-duration visitors working on/installing/retrieving experiments on station.

There's value in sending some cargo up with the astronauts.. for example, the hardware they're going to the station to install, or the EVA equipment they're planning to use. Simplified logistics can result in decreased downtime.

[kirghizstan]

That makes much more sense if SpaceX got the partial, the article reported they only got $75 million to upgrade the Dragon where CST-100 got $131 million and SNC got $125 million.

i think you need to read that again.  they are talking about the earlier round of funding not what they will be receiving

" The three companies tapped for future funding already have received hundreds of millions of dollars from NASA during earlier development phases. Boeing has gotten $131 million for work on its proposed CST-100 capsule, Sierra Nevada has been allotted more than $125 million for its Dream Chaser space plane, and SpaceX has won $75 million to upgrade its Dragon space capsule to carry crew."

[wechose]

If it comes from Jay B then I would bet the hat that Chris often doff's at great things and people that it is true.
Anybody remember when Jay stormed out of a presser as the Shuttle era was coming to an end?,some posters were very cruel towards him regarding the state of his mental health,well the ole man still has it and showed as much during Dragons flight to the ISS.

I Love Dreamchaser but thanks to the good posters on NSF I have had a reality check.Its TPS being exposed is food for thought,especially since the successful vehicle is required to be capable of longstay lifeboat activity.

Would be an injustice if Space-X are rejected,I don't expect they will, but like others I wonder how on Earth(or in space before some smartass says it first they can possibly fulfill their current launch manifest.

Well, whatever, I thought this excitement was gone for a long time after that bleak period post STS-135 but have to admit I am fired up and filled with hope again,after all it is exciting now ain't it? go on admit it! .

Before I know it I will be stating that I always thought the flexible approach was a good idea hoping nobody asks Me to prove I ever said it

Best of luck to all,even the one's We do not yet know about.

[manboy]

Reasonable selection with a nod to the Shuttle’s successor…

?

[manboy]

The Space Shuttle made a good long term career of bringing up crew and a few mT of cargo in one go, Liberty could have been a very good safer replacement but now the only choices will be either crew or cargo which will be ultimately limiting for both NASA and the commercial space industry but hey rejoice 'evil' ATK didn't win so that's ok then lol.  Short-sighted.

It doesn't matter because it was never part of the requirements.

[Bubbinski]

KSL put up an article on its website with some quotes from ATK:

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=21535427&nid=148&title=atk-in-competition-for-500m-from-nasa&s_cid=featured-4

[strangequark]

KSL put up an article on its website with some quotes from ATK:

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=21535427&nid=148&title=atk-in-competition-for-500m-from-nasa&s_cid=featured-4

"If you total all the billions that have been spent into my system before I started, it's probably approaching $10 billion. So I've got a huge head start."

That's one screwed up metric for evaluating a "head start".

[docmordrid]

Wall Street Journal is calling Boeing and SpaceX as the winners of the bulk of the cash

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443545504577565532898170476.html

Paywall prevents viewing all but the first couple of paragraphs though.

[majormajor42]

"If you total all the billions that have been spent into my system before I started, it's probably approaching $10 billion. So I've got a huge head start."

That's one screwed up metric for evaluating a "head start".

Yeah, that kinda jumped out at me too. #facepalm

[Orbiter]

That makes much more sense if SpaceX got the partial, the article reported they only got $75 million to upgrade the Dragon where CST-100 got $131 million and SNC got $125 million.

i think you need to read that again.  they are talking about the earlier round of funding not what they will be receiving

" The three companies tapped for future funding already have received hundreds of millions of dollars from NASA during earlier development phases. Boeing has gotten $131 million for work on its proposed CST-100 capsule, Sierra Nevada has been allotted more than $125 million for its Dream Chaser space plane, and SpaceX has won $75 million to upgrade its Dragon space capsule to carry crew."

Ah yup, you're right. That's about the earlier round of selections, my mistake of course.

[Jason1701]

Wall Street Journal is calling Boeing and SpaceX as the winners of the bulk of the cash

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443545504577565532898170476.html

Paywall prevents viewing all but the first couple of paragraphs though.

This was posted hours ago.

If you want to get around the paywall, Google the article name.

[docmordrid]

Tried that - didn't work.

[Danderman]

Apparently, SNC got a partial award, whereas Boeing and SpaceX got the full boat, per Alan Boyle.