Author Topic: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)  (Read 238151 times)

Offline Nathan

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #20 on: 07/24/2012 10:20 am »
When is the next falcon 9 launch? All the chatter on this forum is related to the next iss mission but the spacex manifest lists mda corp as the next launch. There isn't a thread for it on the missions section of this forum.
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Offline baldusi

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #21 on: 07/24/2012 02:33 pm »
Starting with the Merlin 1C, it has a published vac Isp of 304.8sec and a vac Thrust of 138,000lbf. That suggests that its normal fuel consumption rate would be 447.4708lb/sec in steady-state operation.
Look into the COTS Press Kit. The true Merlin 1C value are much lower.

It would seem you are not accounting for throttling
Merlin 1C can't throttle.

Offline WHAP

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #22 on: 07/24/2012 02:58 pm »
When is the next falcon 9 launch? All the chatter on this forum is related to the next iss mission but the spacex manifest lists mda corp as the next launch. There isn't a thread for it on the missions section of this forum.

It would appear sometime in October.  There is a thread for the US Launch Schedule on this forum located here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8184.msg926535#msg926535 (latest updated post as of right now).

Remember that SpaceX's manifest does not identify the "next launch", but only provides "arrival of hardware at the launch site".  Not particularly useful information with respect to launch days, or even launch order, especially since it only lists the year.  Information on the SpaceX home page does not appear to be any different.

« Last Edit: 07/24/2012 03:03 pm by WHAP »
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Offline MP99

Remember that SpaceX's manifest does not identify the "next launch", but only provides "arrival of hardware at the launch site".  Not particularly useful information with respect to launch days, or even launch order, especially since it only lists the year.  Information on the SpaceX home page does not appear to be any different.

Also, the MDA launch is going up from VAFB.

Since this is SpaceX's first launch from VAFB, we can expect them to have a much longer lead time from hardware delivery (manifest) to launch. Lots of new facilities to bed down, etc.

In addition, this will be their first F9 launch with a PLF, and the first where they have to work with a customer's payload rather than having full control over their own Dragon. Actually, they may have secondaries on CRS flights before MDA finally flies, but I'm guessing the customer may have more involvement when they're the primary payload.

cheers, Martin

Offline DaveH62

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #24 on: 07/24/2012 06:58 pm »
Interesting article on Musk online. What caught my eye was a used Dragon and a new Dragon, looking about ready to go. Has the shape changed? Could this be a prototype of Dragon 2, with SuperDracos?


Article link:
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-day-in-the-life-of-the-tesla-and-spacex-ceo-2012-7?op=1


Offline Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #25 on: 07/24/2012 07:04 pm »
Interesting article on Musk online. What caught my eye was a used Dragon and a new Dragon, looking about ready to go. Has the shape changed? Could this be a prototype of Dragon 2, with SuperDracos?


Article link:
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-day-in-the-life-of-the-tesla-and-spacex-ceo-2012-7?op=1
Are you sure that's not the mock-up? The new mock-up indeed has spots for the SuperDracos. If that is the next Dragon for launch (i.e. for CRS-1), then SpaceX has been making some very significant strides without letting us know. (Previous information pointed to the next Dragon for CRS-1 and probably CRS-2 being basically the same as the COTS 2+ Dragon.)

I'm betting it's the mock-up.
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Offline DaveH62

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #26 on: 07/24/2012 07:09 pm »
Interesting article on Musk online. What caught my eye was a used Dragon and a new Dragon, looking about ready to go. Has the shape changed? Could this be a prototype of Dragon 2, with SuperDracos?


Article link:
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-day-in-the-life-of-the-tesla-and-spacex-ceo-2012-7?op=1
Are you sure that's not the mock-up? The new mock-up indeed has spots for the SuperDracos. If that is the next Dragon for launch (i.e. for CRS-1), then SpaceX has been making some very significant strides without letting us know. (Previous information pointed to the next Dragon for CRS-1 and probably CRS-2 being basically the same as the COTS 2+ Dragon.)

I'm betting it's the mock-up.
Mock-up seems likely. Note the US flag, which to me implies crewed capsule. Looks cool!

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #27 on: 07/24/2012 07:14 pm »
Interesting article on Musk online. What caught my eye was a used Dragon and a new Dragon, looking about ready to go. Has the shape changed? Could this be a prototype of Dragon 2, with SuperDracos?


Article link:
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-day-in-the-life-of-the-tesla-and-spacex-ceo-2012-7?op=1
Are you sure that's not the mock-up? The new mock-up indeed has spots for the SuperDracos. If that is the next Dragon for launch (i.e. for CRS-1), then SpaceX has been making some very significant strides without letting us know. (Previous information pointed to the next Dragon for CRS-1 and probably CRS-2 being basically the same as the COTS 2+ Dragon.)

I'm betting it's the mock-up.
Mock-up seems likely. Note the US flag, which to me implies crewed capsule. Looks cool!
Looks cooler from this angle. A bunch of noses. And a monocle. ;)
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline go4mars

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #28 on: 07/24/2012 07:20 pm »
I'm betting it's the mock-up.
Most likely. Although it might just not be installed yet, "The Brogan" doesn't seem to appear under the dragon nose.  Unless perhaps it is painted white for takeoff.  Also, they just finished a superdraco full thrust full duration not too long ago.  It would seem really fast, though not impossible to have already made and incorporated 8 dragon nostrils for an abort/landing test article.
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Offline Nathan

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #29 on: 07/24/2012 07:42 pm »
When is the next falcon 9 launch? All the chatter on this forum is related to the next iss mission but the spacex manifest lists mda corp as the next launch. There isn't a thread for it on the missions section of this forum.

It would appear sometime in October.  There is a thread for the US Launch Schedule on this forum located here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8184.msg926535#msg926535 (latest updated post as of right now).

Remember that SpaceX's manifest does not identify the "next launch", but only provides "arrival of hardware at the launch site".  Not particularly useful information with respect to launch days, or even launch order, especially since it only lists the year.  Information on the SpaceX home page does not appear to be any different.


Ok thank you. Hadn't seen much discussion of it.  Looks like we will see two crs launches ahead of this one so 2013 is the launch year. Also looks to be carrying orbcomm says too.
Given finite cash, if we want to go to Mars then we should go to Mars.

Offline douglas100

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #30 on: 07/24/2012 07:47 pm »

Are you sure that's not the mock-up? The new mock-up indeed has spots for the SuperDracos. If that is the next Dragon for launch (i.e. for CRS-1), then SpaceX has been making some very significant strides without letting us know. (Previous information pointed to the next Dragon for CRS-1 and probably CRS-2 being basically the same as the COTS 2+ Dragon.)

I'm betting it's the mock-up.

Agree it's a mock up. Notice it has a docking collar not a CBM so it's not going to be used for CRS-1 or 2.
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Offline mgfitter

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #31 on: 07/24/2012 10:38 pm »
Starting with the Merlin 1C, it has a published vac Isp of 304.8sec and a vac Thrust of 138,000lbf. That suggests that its normal fuel consumption rate would be 447.4708lb/sec in steady-state operation.
Look into the COTS Press Kit. The true Merlin 1C value are much lower.

Thanks guys, that seems to explain it then. They're just running the 1C at a lower thrust level than its maximum.

It sounds like they decided not to certify the stretching of the tank to better suit the added performance -- they're saving that expense for the 1D. Makes sense.

-MG.

Online ugordan

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #32 on: 07/24/2012 10:43 pm »
They're just running the 1C at a lower thrust level than its maximum.

No, they're running it at full thrust. 1C doesn't go further than that.

Offline Carreidas 160

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #33 on: 07/24/2012 11:49 pm »
Starting with the Merlin 1C, it has a published vac Isp of 304.8sec and a vac Thrust of 138,000lbf. That suggests that its normal fuel consumption rate would be 447.4708lb/sec in steady-state operation.
Look into the COTS Press Kit. The true Merlin 1C value are much lower.

Thanks guys, that seems to explain it then. They're just running the 1C at a lower thrust level than its maximum.

It sounds like they decided not to certify the stretching of the tank to better suit the added performance -- they're saving that expense for the 1D. Makes sense.

-MG.

Seems like you're using vacuum numbers as well, which are higher than sea level.

Offline mgfitter

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #34 on: 07/25/2012 12:14 am »
They're just running the 1C at a lower thrust level than its maximum.

No, they're running it at full thrust. 1C doesn't go further than that.

Really? Wow.

Wasn't the official vac thrust figure 138,000 lbf for the 1C? Yet in practice the figure appears to be more like 101,500 lbf (~85K SL), based on known fuel quantities and real-world burn time.

That's more than a 30% difference, which seems a bit much to be just a public affairs misunderstanding. Surely the official figures can't be *that* unreliable? Anyone know any more about the real story behind this?

-MG.
« Last Edit: 07/25/2012 12:14 am by mgfitter »

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #35 on: 07/25/2012 12:36 am »
Wasn't the official vac thrust figure 138,000 lbf for the 1C? Yet in practice the figure appears to be more like 101,500 lbf (~85K SL), based on known fuel quantities and real-world burn time.

Sea level 95 klbf, add about 11% to that for vac thrust.

Quote
That's more than a 30% difference, which seems a bit much to be just a public affairs misunderstanding. Surely the official figures can't be *that* unreliable? Anyone know any more about the real story behind this?

There is no story, those are the real 1C thrust numbers. The numbers on the SpaceX website always assumed the future turbopump upgrade which ultimately happened a couple of years later than anticipated and ended up being the current Merlin 1D.

Offline go4mars

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #36 on: 07/25/2012 01:03 am »
Elon Musk, Peter Diamandis, Buzz Aldrin, Bob Zubrin, and some other big names will be there too.
Can add Lori Garver to that list now too.     

I hope some of these folks have the chance make responding comments in some kind of panel format after Elon's keynote address but still before Curiosity lands.  That would be "very good filler" imo. 
« Last Edit: 07/25/2012 01:04 am by go4mars »
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Offline mgfitter

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #37 on: 07/25/2012 01:37 am »
The numbers on the SpaceX website always assumed the future turbopump upgrade which ultimately happened a couple of years later than anticipated and ended up being the current Merlin 1D.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Is there anything similar to be aware of regarding the Merlin 1C Vacuum?

-MG.

Offline iamlucky13

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Re: SpaceX: General Falcon and Dragon discussion (Thread 6)
« Reply #38 on: 07/25/2012 01:38 am »
Interesting article on Musk online. What caught my eye was a used Dragon and a new Dragon, looking about ready to go. Has the shape changed? Could this be a prototype of Dragon 2, with SuperDracos?


Article link:
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-day-in-the-life-of-the-tesla-and-spacex-ceo-2012-7?op=1
Are you sure that's not the mock-up? The new mock-up indeed has spots for the SuperDracos. If that is the next Dragon for launch (i.e. for CRS-1), then SpaceX has been making some very significant strides without letting us know. (Previous information pointed to the next Dragon for CRS-1 and probably CRS-2 being basically the same as the COTS 2+ Dragon.)

I'm betting it's the mock-up.
Mock-up seems likely. Note the US flag, which to me implies crewed capsule. Looks cool!
Looks cooler from this angle. A bunch of noses. And a monocle. ;)

Nice. The fairings give Dragon a lot more character.

I guess I must have missed the discussion in another thread, because no one here is pointing out that this photo suggests the answer to the question of where the Super Dracos go.

I don't recall previously seeing any confirmation they'll fire at an angle from the sides, as opposed to through blow-out panels in the heatshield, and I know I've never seen an illustration of bump-out fairings.

Offline MP99

They're just running the 1C at a lower thrust level than its maximum.

No, they're running it at full thrust. 1C doesn't go further than that.

Really? Wow.

Wasn't the official vac thrust figure 138,000 lbf for the 1C? Yet in practice the figure appears to be more like 101,500 lbf (~85K SL), based on known fuel quantities and real-world burn time.

That's more than a 30% difference, which seems a bit much to be just a public affairs misunderstanding. Surely the official figures can't be *that* unreliable? Anyone know any more about the real story behind this?

-MG.

Those are M1C block 2. Never flown, and never will.

Superceded by M1D.

cheers, Martin

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