ATK push for US space flight independence via Liberty

[daveklingler]

This is NOT about Challenger. DaveK, no more from you on this thread. You're derailing, causing lots of complaints.

Let's drop my first question, since it IS derailing the thread.  Apologies to anyone who's offended.

My second question was:

What percentage of Liberty have they paid for so far and what percentage will they pay for if Liberty is chosen for CCiCap? 

[nodog]

This is NOT about Challenger. DaveK, no more from you on this thread. You're derailing, causing lots of complaints.

Let's drop my first question, since it IS derailing the thread.  Apologies to anyone who's offended.

My second question was:

What percentage of Liberty have they paid for so far and what percentage will they pay for if Liberty is chosen for CCiCap? 

That is one of the CCiCap evaluation criteria, so I'm sure the answer is proprietary.

[nodog]

This is NOT about Challenger. DaveK, no more from you on this thread. You're derailing, causing lots of complaints.

Let's drop my first question, since it IS derailing the thread.  Apologies to anyone who's offended.

My second question was:

What percentage of Liberty have they paid for so far and what percentage will they pay for if Liberty is chosen for CCiCap? 

Do you know the answer for any of the other participants?

[Chris Bergin]

Questions like that, Dave, will be good ones to add to the pile for when I schedule an interview with ATK (they have offered, so I've just got to find time to fit it inbetween the day jobs).

I'm guessing they won't give specific dollar amounts, but I would assume they could provide rough percentages.

When the time comes, I'll make sure I give the threads a good read to pick out some "burning" questions!

[daveklingler]

Questions like that, Dave, will be good ones to add to the pile for when I schedule an interview with ATK (they have offered, so I've just got to find time to fit it inbetween the day jobs).

I'm guessing they won't give specific dollar amounts, but I would assume they could provide rough percentages.

When the time comes, I'll make sure I give the threads a good read to pick out some "burning" questions!

Thank you, Chris.  I'd appreciate that.

I spent several hours trying to determine the answer to that question for Sierra Nevada the other day, counting up subs, trying to estimate how much each one would have been paid.  It was impossible.

What I did determine, though, was that even though I think CCDev has been a remarkably good deal for U.S. taxpayers in comparison to "business as usual" programs, it's still been fairly lucrative for the contractors involved.  Two of them, Boeing and ATK, whom I haven't delved into with the same kind of diligence I used for SNC, seem to have leveraged a great deal of work they've done for other programs for Commercial Crew.  I can't fault them for their business practices but it's weird to see their PR teams talking about all the work they've done for the good of the country.

[darkenfast]

Question: if Liberty and SLS were to go ahead, is there enough similarity in the solid motor part of each vehicle that both would be grounded in the event of a serious failure of one of them? 

[Robotbeat]

Question: if Liberty and SLS were to go ahead, is there enough similarity in the solid motor part of each vehicle that both would be grounded in the event of a serious failure of one of them? 

If it's related to the boosters and/or first stage, it could be, at least for manned missions.

[Rocket Science]

Questions like that, Dave, will be good ones to add to the pile for when I schedule an interview with ATK (they have offered, so I've just got to find time to fit it inbetween the day jobs).

I'm guessing they won't give specific dollar amounts, but I would assume they could provide rough percentages.

When the time comes, I'll make sure I give the threads a good read to pick out some "burning" questions!

Thank you, Chris.  I'd appreciate that.

I spent several hours trying to determine the answer to that question for Sierra Nevada the other day, counting up subs, trying to estimate how much each one would have been paid.  It was impossible.

What I did determine, though, was that even though I think CCDev has been a remarkably good deal for U.S. taxpayers in comparison to "business as usual" programs, it's still been fairly lucrative for the contractors involved.  Two of them, Boeing and ATK, whom I haven't delved into with the same kind of diligence I used for SNC, seem to have leveraged a great deal of work they've done for other programs for Commercial Crew.  I can't fault them for their business practices but it's weird to see their PR teams talking about all the work they've done for the good of the country.

It’s the standard MO for the company… They wrap themselves around the flag, play the national anthems at motor tests, name their rocket “Liberty”stars and stripes in included… Just a wee bit obvious on their part….

~Robert

[rmencos]

Questions like that, Dave, will be good ones to add to the pile for when I schedule an interview with ATK (they have offered, so I've just got to find time to fit it inbetween the day jobs).

I'm guessing they won't give specific dollar amounts, but I would assume they could provide rough percentages.

When the time comes, I'll make sure I give the threads a good read to pick out some "burning" questions!

Awesome.  Some burning questions that I have are: Have they approached other competitors (e.g. Blue Origin) to determine if they desire Liberty as a launch vehicle?  Is the Liberty Rocket and Capsule a package deal or can ATK develop only one?  If so, will it privately continue funding the other option?  What do they want to do with Liberty beyond CCDev?  Do they want to compete for satellite launches?  Will these be competitions against Ariane?  Do they hope to bring Liberty to other launch locations, such as South America?  Do they hope to compete for cargo?  Are they ready to compete for cargo in case Orbital fails?  How soon? Can the Liberty rocket evolve (like the Falcon Heavy)?

[gladiator1332]

Forgive me if I somehow missed this in the article, has ATK yet provided details on where all of the casings for this vehicle will come from? If it is nonrecoverable like SLS, they are going to have to make more correct?

And with NASA using the remaining ones for SLS, I'd assume ATK has to start making some new ones pretty quick, as to avoid taking away from SLS.

Any clarification on this would be greatly appreciated.

[neilh]

There's a fair amount of skepticism on this thread regarding ATK, and I confess to having a lot of it myself.

Three people on this thread do not equate to fair amount, no matter how many times they feel they need to post on a thread.

I think it's fair to assume that more than three people possess at least some degree of skepticism about ATK's claim that Liberty "provides the safest, most reliable capability to launch crews to low earth orbit for commercial space," or that it will be the "safest, most reliable, cost-effective and capable launch vehicle for crew transport," or their continued repetition of the myth that their competitors have abort blackzone problems.

[Downix]

There's a fair amount of skepticism on this thread regarding ATK, and I confess to having a lot of it myself.

Three people on this thread do not equate to fair amount, no matter how many times they feel they need to post on a thread.

I think it's fair to assume that more than three people possess at least some degree of skepticism about ATK's claim that Liberty "provides the safest, most reliable capability to launch crews to low earth orbit for commercial space," or that it will be the "safest, most reliable, cost-effective and capable launch vehicle for crew transport," or their continued repetition of the myth that their competitors have abort blackzone problems.

I have not seen them report blackzones in quite some time. They appear to have backed off of that claim, which is smart business.  As for the rest, welcome to Marketing.

[Robotbeat]

There's a fair amount of skepticism on this thread regarding ATK, and I confess to having a lot of it myself.

Three people on this thread do not equate to fair amount, no matter how many times they feel they need to post on a thread.

I think it's fair to assume that more than three people possess at least some degree of skepticism about ATK's claim that Liberty "provides the safest, most reliable capability to launch crews to low earth orbit for commercial space," or that it will be the "safest, most reliable, cost-effective and capable launch vehicle for crew transport," or their continued repetition of the myth that their competitors have abort blackzone problems.

I have not seen them report blackzones in quite some time. They appear to have backed off of that claim, which is smart business.  ...

You didn't see the latest Liberty unveiling video, did you? It was in the last couple months that it was repeated very publicly and prominently. It's a bald-faced lie, and they should issue a retraction.

[Danderman]

Perhaps there could be a technical discussion about what black zones are in another section.

[Go4TLI]

There's a fair amount of skepticism on this thread regarding ATK, and I confess to having a lot of it myself.

Three people on this thread do not equate to fair amount, no matter how many times they feel they need to post on a thread.

I think it's fair to assume that more than three people possess at least some degree of skepticism about ATK's claim that Liberty "provides the safest, most reliable capability to launch crews to low earth orbit for commercial space," or that it will be the "safest, most reliable, cost-effective and capable launch vehicle for crew transport," or their continued repetition of the myth that their competitors have abort blackzone problems.

I have not seen them report blackzones in quite some time. They appear to have backed off of that claim, which is smart business.  ...

You didn't see the latest Liberty unveiling video, did you? It was in the last couple months that it was repeated very publicly and prominently. It's a bald-faced lie, and they should issue a retraction.

I would recommend getting over it. I don't see the same outrage with SpaceX claims, such as they are the space shuttle replacement or the fact that 9 out of 10 dentists supposedly recommend Crest

[neilh]

Perhaps there could be a technical discussion about what black zones are in another section.

I think pulling blackzone discussion into a separate thread is a good idea.

Also, is video from ATK's Liberty briefing available somewhere? I'd like to try to pull the exact quote from it.

[joek]

When the time comes, I'll make sure I give the threads a good read to pick out some "burning" questions!

I'd like to know more about the spacecraft; most of the information and discussion seems to center on the LV.  We know ATK received a "green" rating for both technical and business in the CCDev-2 evaluation, but that didn't include a spacecraft (and one reason given as to why they weren't selected).  In particular:
- Why didn't they propose a spacecraft as part of their CCDev-2 proposal, but are doing so now?  What changed?
- What are the major risk reduction efforts they feel are needed for the spacecraft before making a test flight?
- As an integrated system, what's the relative split in effort between the LV vs. the spacecraft?

[Go4TLI]

When the time comes, I'll make sure I give the threads a good read to pick out some "burning" questions!

I'd like to know more about the spacecraft; most of the information and discussion seems to center on the LV.  We know ATK received a "green" rating for both technical and business in the CCDev-2 evaluation, but that didn't include a spacecraft (and one reason given as to why they weren't selected).  In particular:
- Why didn't they propose a spacecraft as part of their CCDev-2 proposal, but are doing so now?  What changed?
- What are the major risk reduction efforts they feel are needed for the spacecraft before making a test flight?
- As an integrated system, what's the relative split in effort between the LV vs. the spacecraft?

1. The Liberty rocket was more mature and CCDev did not discriminate on launch vehicles or spacecraft. It was up to NASA on what they wanted to fund and who had the best overall proposals from that lot

2.  CCiCap is an integrated end-to-end product including ground ops, flight ops, etc

3.  ATK is the lead and integrator for the Liberty system, which is analogous to the Dream Chaser system

4.  It is no secret that Lockheed Martin believes in the capabilities of Orion and believes it could do more than NASA beyond earth efforts

[joek]

1. The Liberty rocket was more mature and CCDev did not discriminate on launch vehicles or spacecraft. It was up to NASA on what they wanted to fund and who had the best overall proposals from that lot

2.  CCiCap is an integrated end-to-end product including ground ops, flight ops, etc

3.  ATK is the lead and integrator for the Liberty system, which is analogous to the Dream Chaser system

4.  It is no secret that Lockheed Martin believes in the capabilities of Orion and believes it could do more than NASA beyond earth efforts

Right, CCiCap proposal without spacecraft+LV+etc is a non-starter.  Then again, CCDEv-2 proposals without a system that included a spacecraft, or a focus on spacecraft or spacecraft-centric elements, were also non-starters. (The CCDev-2 solicitation at first blush seems ambivalent, but a close reading suggests otherwise, and the CCDev-2 selection statement makes it crystal clear.)

Thus, if there was a time for ATK to include a spacecraft in their proposal, CCDev-2 would seem to have been the place to start.  It wasn't all that long ago, so did something fundamental change recently, or did ATK simply not think the spacecraft was the long pole in the tent, ... or what?  (I have lots-o-theories as I'm sure do others, but further speculation at this point would be of little value.)

In any case, I think your're synopsis is probably close, but if Chris gets the chance to pose those questions to ATK, it would be interesting to hear what they have to say.

[Chris Bergin]

Yep, keep them coming. I'll pick out the best and while I can't propose a pdf worth of answers, something is always better than nothing!