ATK push for US space flight independence via Liberty

[docmordrid]

And the perchlorate issue, now that EPA has decided to regulate them? That isn't going to help costs.

http://water.epa.gov/drink/contaminants/unregulated/upload/FactSheet_PerchlorateDetermination.pdf

[spectre9]

As long as we are talking Alaska, What about the issue with segmented solids and cold temps ? Weren't there thermal constraints with Shuttle launches due to the O-rings ? That O-rings design was changed, but they still exist in the 5-seg boosters, right ? Cold temps not an issue anymore ??

I understand global warming, but it still gets cold in Alasks, right ?

How about taking Kodiak talk to the Athena thread?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28231.50

I posted a nice article there that I wouldn't mind getting some thoughts on.

[rmencos]

I ran across this article written today by Jay Barbree.  Talking about SpaceX and ATK, he writes an open plea to President Obama:

"Don't prop up the newcomers while giving short shrift to America's most experienced aerospace companies. This happened before, when the White House took the contract from the experienced and gave it to the inexperienced. In 1967, the Apollo 1 astronauts paid with their lives in a launch-pad fire."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48185452/ns/technology_and_science-space/

Is the life vs. death comparison fair?  If SpaceX wins CCiCap and a terrible tragedy occurs, where lives are lost, would people second guess NASA if it did not choose ATK? 

I know Keith Cowing seemed to think that there was some coordination between Barbree and ATK during a press event last year.  But on the other hand, Barbree has been around for a long time and seems to have a great reputation as a journalist.

[cleonard]

I ran across this article written today by Jay Barbree.  Talking about SpaceX and ATK, he writes an open plea to President Obama:

"Don't prop up the newcomers while giving short shrift to America's most experienced aerospace companies. This happened before, when the White House took the contract from the experienced and gave it to the inexperienced. In 1967, the Apollo 1 astronauts paid with their lives in a launch-pad fire."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48185452/ns/technology_and_science-space/

Is the life vs. death comparison fair?  If SpaceX wins CCiCap and a terrible tragedy occurs, where lives are lost, would people second guess NASA if it did not choose ATK? 

I know Keith Cowing seemed to think that there was some coordination between Barbree and ATK during a press event last year.  But on the other hand, Barbree has been around for a long time and seems to have a great reputation as a journalist.

I don't think it matters much who is selected.  If there are lives lost there will be a lot of second guessing even if top tier defense contractors like Boeing or Lockheed build it.

[Robotbeat]

I ran across this article written today by Jay Barbree.  Talking about SpaceX and ATK, he writes an open plea to President Obama:

"Don't prop up the newcomers while giving short shrift to America's most experienced aerospace companies. This happened before, when the White House took the contract from the experienced and gave it to the inexperienced. In 1967, the Apollo 1 astronauts paid with their lives in a launch-pad fire."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48185452/ns/technology_and_science-space/

Is the life vs. death comparison fair?  If SpaceX wins CCiCap and a terrible tragedy occurs, where lives are lost, would people second guess NASA if it did not choose ATK? 

I know Keith Cowing seemed to think that there was some coordination between Barbree and ATK during a press event last year.  But on the other hand, Barbree has been around for a long time and seems to have a great reputation as a journalist.

ATK? Most experienced?? Surely, you're joking.

Boeing, Lockheed, sure. ATK, however, has less experience with integrating, launching, and operating human spacecraft to orbit than SpaceX. Far less, since SpaceX has at least launched SOMETHING to orbit, and that something has docked to Station and been temporally inhabited by astronauts.

ATK is a component manufacturer trying to expand into something they currently have no real experience doing. And while they are welcome to try and succeed in that new area, they shouldn't engage in a dishonest campaign (perhaps indirectly through Barbree) to pretend that they are somehow super-experienced in this. Because they aren't, not at all.

[Rocket Science]

I ran across this article written today by Jay Barbree.  Talking about SpaceX and ATK, he writes an open plea to President Obama:

"Don't prop up the newcomers while giving short shrift to America's most experienced aerospace companies. This happened before, when the White House took the contract from the experienced and gave it to the inexperienced. In 1967, the Apollo 1 astronauts paid with their lives in a launch-pad fire."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48185452/ns/technology_and_science-space/

Is the life vs. death comparison fair?  If SpaceX wins CCiCap and a terrible tragedy occurs, where lives are lost, would people second guess NASA if it did not choose ATK? 

I know Keith Cowing seemed to think that there was some coordination between Barbree and ATK during a press event last year.  But on the other hand, Barbree has been around for a long time and seems to have a great reputation as a journalist.

Mr. Barbree is spinning history to meet his own agenda.  Apollo 1 was built to NASA’s own specifications as they stood at that time. No need to lay blame totally on the contractor North American, there was enough to go around.
 
That being said ATK has never launched a human rated launch system with spacecraft. I really do not get the point, or maybe I do…

[Lars_J]

I see Mr Jay "bought by ATK" Barbree authored another hit piece. At least that's the way he makes it look.

[Downix]

I ran across this article written today by Jay Barbree.  Talking about SpaceX and ATK, he writes an open plea to President Obama:

"Don't prop up the newcomers while giving short shrift to America's most experienced aerospace companies. This happened before, when the White House took the contract from the experienced and gave it to the inexperienced. In 1967, the Apollo 1 astronauts paid with their lives in a launch-pad fire."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48185452/ns/technology_and_science-space/

Is the life vs. death comparison fair?  If SpaceX wins CCiCap and a terrible tragedy occurs, where lives are lost, would people second guess NASA if it did not choose ATK? 

I know Keith Cowing seemed to think that there was some coordination between Barbree and ATK during a press event last year.  But on the other hand, Barbree has been around for a long time and seems to have a great reputation as a journalist.

ATK? Most experienced?? Surely, you're joking.

Boeing, Lockheed, sure. ATK, however, has less experience with integrating, launching, and operating human spacecraft to orbit than SpaceX. Far less, since SpaceX has at least launched SOMETHING to orbit, and that something has docked to Station and been temporally inhabited by astronauts.

ATK is a component manufacturer trying to expand into something they currently have no real experience doing. And while they are welcome to try and succeed in that new area, they shouldn't engage in a dishonest campaign (perhaps indirectly through Barbree) to pretend that they are somehow super-experienced in this. Because they aren't, not at all.

ATK has built a launch system before, although not successfully. The ALV was launched, even if not successfully, which means the statement that they have no experience is not true.

[spectre9]

Morton-Thiokol?

Does that count as giving to the inexperienced with dire consequences?

I believe that's bias.

[Prober]

I ran across this article written today by Jay Barbree.  Talking about SpaceX and ATK, he writes an open plea to President Obama:

"Don't prop up the newcomers while giving short shrift to America's most experienced aerospace companies. This happened before, when the White House took the contract from the experienced and gave it to the inexperienced. In 1967, the Apollo 1 astronauts paid with their lives in a launch-pad fire."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48185452/ns/technology_and_science-space/

Wish this article would not have gone out.    Don’t wish politics, or the WH attn on the downselect.

[rmencos]

I ran across this article written today by Jay Barbree.  Talking about SpaceX and ATK, he writes an open plea to President Obama:

"Don't prop up the newcomers while giving short shrift to America's most experienced aerospace companies. This happened before, when the White House took the contract from the experienced and gave it to the inexperienced. In 1967, the Apollo 1 astronauts paid with their lives in a launch-pad fire."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48185452/ns/technology_and_science-space/

Is the life vs. death comparison fair?  If SpaceX wins CCiCap and a terrible tragedy occurs, where lives are lost, would people second guess NASA if it did not choose ATK? 

I know Keith Cowing seemed to think that there was some coordination between Barbree and ATK during a press event last year.  But on the other hand, Barbree has been around for a long time and seems to have a great reputation as a journalist.

Mr. Barbree is spinning history to meet his own agenda.  Apollo 1 was built to NASA’s own specifications as they stood at that time. No need to lay blame totally on the contractor North American, there was enough to go around.
 
That being said ATK has never launched a human rated launch system with spacecraft. I really do not get the point, or maybe I do…

As it turns out, there is a great recent article on the Apollo 1 tragedy (link below).  It quotes astronaut Tom Stafford, who described North American as "a slick, big-time bunch of Washington operators."  Barbree never mentioned the Washington connection, which I know some people on this thread will find a more interesting parallel.  To be fair, there will be future installments to the Barbree piece, and ATK is not the only company with political backing.

http://www.americaspace.org/?p=22424

[rmencos]

I know Keith Cowing seemed to think that there was some coordination between Barbree and ATK during a press event last year.  But on the other hand, Barbree has been around for a long time and seems to have a great reputation as a journalist.

Barbree is not acting as a journalist.  This is a "commentary".  He is expressing his opinion, right or wrong.

 - Ed Kyle

Thanks.  Good catch.  Important distinction.

[rmencos]

Is the life vs. death comparison fair?  If SpaceX wins CCiCap and a terrible tragedy occurs, where lives are lost, would people second guess NASA if it did not choose ATK? 

I don't think it matters much who is selected.  If there are lives lost there will be a lot of second guessing even if top tier defense contractors like Boeing or Lockheed build it.

Agreed.  I looked at other instances where contractors were blamed and Apollo 13 is a good example.  Although, as far as I know, those contractors continued to be used by NASA - I'm not sure.  The blame does not seem to have extended to NASA's judgement in the selection process, as is now being suggested if ATK is not one of the "chosen."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19700616&id=KSBOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Wu0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=5503,215021

[Robotbeat]

I ran across this article written today by Jay Barbree.  Talking about SpaceX and ATK, he writes an open plea to President Obama:

"Don't prop up the newcomers while giving short shrift to America's most experienced aerospace companies. This happened before, when the White House took the contract from the experienced and gave it to the inexperienced. In 1967, the Apollo 1 astronauts paid with their lives in a launch-pad fire."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48185452/ns/technology_and_science-space/

Is the life vs. death comparison fair?  If SpaceX wins CCiCap and a terrible tragedy occurs, where lives are lost, would people second guess NASA if it did not choose ATK? 

I know Keith Cowing seemed to think that there was some coordination between Barbree and ATK during a press event last year.  But on the other hand, Barbree has been around for a long time and seems to have a great reputation as a journalist.

ATK? Most experienced?? Surely, you're joking.

Boeing, Lockheed, sure. ATK, however, has less experience with integrating, launching, and operating human spacecraft to orbit than SpaceX. Far less, since SpaceX has at least launched SOMETHING to orbit, and that something has docked to Station and been temporally inhabited by astronauts.

ATK is a component manufacturer trying to expand into something they currently have no real experience doing. And while they are welcome to try and succeed in that new area, they shouldn't engage in a dishonest campaign (perhaps indirectly through Barbree) to pretend that they are somehow super-experienced in this. Because they aren't, not at all.

ATK has built a launch system before, although not successfully. The ALV was launched, even if not successfully, which means the statement that they have no experience is not true.

ALV. Yes, an unsuccessful /sounding rocket/. I didn't bring it up because it's even more embarrassing to ATK.

[notsorandom]

I ran across this article written today by Jay Barbree.  Talking about SpaceX and ATK, he writes an open plea to President Obama:

"Don't prop up the newcomers while giving short shrift to America's most experienced aerospace companies. This happened before, when the White House took the contract from the experienced and gave it to the inexperienced. In 1967, the Apollo 1 astronauts paid with their lives in a launch-pad fire."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48185452/ns/technology_and_science-space/

Is the life vs. death comparison fair?  If SpaceX wins CCiCap and a terrible tragedy occurs, where lives are lost, would people second guess NASA if it did not choose ATK? 

I know Keith Cowing seemed to think that there was some coordination between Barbree and ATK during a press event last year.  But on the other hand, Barbree has been around for a long time and seems to have a great reputation as a journalist.

ATK? Most experienced?? Surely, you're joking.

Boeing, Lockheed, sure. ATK, however, has less experience with integrating, launching, and operating human spacecraft to orbit than SpaceX. Far less, since SpaceX has at least launched SOMETHING to orbit, and that something has docked to Station and been temporally inhabited by astronauts.

ATK is a component manufacturer trying to expand into something they currently have no real experience doing. And while they are welcome to try and succeed in that new area, they shouldn't engage in a dishonest campaign (perhaps indirectly through Barbree) to pretend that they are somehow super-experienced in this. Because they aren't, not at all.

ATK is not just a component manufacturer they do have experience in what they are attempting to do. This isn't like an electronics component manufacturer announcing that it is going to start making iPhones. The bulk of Liberty has already been tested. It has been said that Ares I's first stage essentially ready to go, it wasn't what was holding the program up. And there is no reason to think it will not do its job with the more modest payload goals of Liberty. If EADS says they can get their stage to work in this system I see no reason to disbelieve them. They should know the Ariane 5 core better then anyone and they do have plenty of experience in launch vehicle design and operation. Lockheed-Martin is 100% capable of making the capsule. At least I would hope so! I don't see that there is any magic going on here with putting all these components together. Companies that do have experience as you say have signed on to be part of this venture. They are risking time, money, and prestige on this project seeming to think it will work.

[Rocket Science]

Integrating multiple different components in order to create a reliable launch system is challenging, especially when they were never designed to be used together in the first place.  The devil is in the details…  In the end is always “just a matter of time and money”… How long and how much you got?

[rmencos]

Here's Barbree's elaboration on why chooses Liberty and thinks SpaceX is inexperienced. SNC is thrown under the bus.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48205926/ns/technology_and_science-space/

The coincidence between this article and the pending CCiCap decision can't be ignored.  It could influence somehow.  Part of the ATK push?

[ugordan]

The coincidence between this article and the pending CCiCap decision can't be ignored.  It could influence somehow.

A bit too late for that, isn't it?

[Rocket Science]

Jay and his old space, ok we get it… NASA has Orion/ MPCV in the works. When was the last time LockMart built a human rated spacecraft?

[FinalFrontier]

Integrating multiple different components in order to create a reliable launch system is challenging, especially when they were never designed to be used together in the first place.  The devil is in the details…  In the end is always “just a matter of time and money”… How long and how much you got?

I can tell you if the impale themselves over this thing financially I won't shed a tear. Its their demon, if they want to keep it alive on their head be it, and all its wonderful quirks.