Propforce - 29/6/2007 10:59 PM
So Gus....
If the job market look better back in 1994, i.e., if the Delta III were hiring the GD talents sooner.... you would've stay in California?
I just had this conversation with a Delta IV employee and I've learned something may be you can validate or put it out?
The offices and buildings that ULA planned to house Delta IV employees are old, dark, and smelly... is that true?
This person was actually happy to move to Denver becuase she was originally from Pueblo (with Delta II). She had to move to Decatur for 9 months with the program and she hated the place (being out in the country with cow manure smell along the way into work and the only place for lunch was the subway sandwich shop housed inside the factory and all...)
But you know what's the most scary of all?
Based on what she saw, she's predicting that the ULA will eventually move EVERYONE to Decatur.
What do you think?
So Gus....
If the job market look better back in 1994, i.e., if the Delta III were hiring the GD talents sooner.... you would've stay in California?
An interesting “what if”; probably, a move to LA/Orange County would have been more appealing than Denver. Bear in mind that Denver is a nice place to live. I did hear that the RS-68 expert took a job with SpaceX because an Atlas propulsion engineer went over to Delta to replace him with only a limited time to get a data dump.
I just had this conversation with a Delta IV employee and I've learned something may be you can validate or put it out?
The offices and buildings that ULA planned to house Delta IV employees are old, dark, and smelly... is that true?
The plan is to co-locate Atlas and Delta employees by engineering discipline. Not sure where she is sitting so I cannot confirm and I don't know what you are use to at HB. There is a lot of moving around between three buildings to prepare for the peak of relocations from HB in July.
This person was actually happy to move to Denver becuase she was originally from Pueblo (with Delta II). She had to move to Decatur for 9 months with the program and she hated the place (being out in the country with cow manure smell along the way into work and the only place for lunch was the subway sandwich shop housed inside the factory and all...)
But you know what's the most scary of all?
Based on what she saw, she's predicting that the ULA will eventually move EVERYONE to Decatur.
What do you think?
This is one rumor that keeps surfacing. The lease on the three buildings is with LM Space. The executives just moved to East Mineral which is over by the Denver Tech Center, about a half-hour drive from Waterton. According to my sources, the lease for the engineering buildings occupied by ULA in the Waterton campus is for two years. Add to that, it appears the Decatur facility has a lot of incentives to expand to maintain tax incentives (http://www.mceda.org/default.aspx?id=28) A lack of long-term commitment in Waterton and a financial incentive to increase headcount in Decatur make this very plausible. I am approaching early retirement so if the move takes place after Dec 1, 2008, I can pursue a job back with LM Space where I have some contacts, or retire instead of relocating again, should this scenario become reality.
What did she see that would make her think that the Decatur move was imminent?
Gov't Seagull - 30/6/2007 11:29 AMQuotePropforce - 30/6/2007 1:38 AM
Other innovations during during that period (on Delta IV that I know of) are:
Incorporation of Friction Stir Welding (FSW) on large propellant tanks. Delta IV did not invent the FSW process but I believe they were the first to incorporated it into tank manufacturing for the U.S. launch vehciles.
That one I agree with
QuoteIncorporation of the horizontal integration of launch vehicles. Again, Delta did not invent the process but they incorporated it on a U.S. launch vehicle assembly line. BTW, you may have to visit the Decautor factory to appreciate this, but they took a lot of "lessons learned" from the Boeing aircraft assembly and applied them to launch vehicles, making the whole process more efficient and less time consuming.
Maybe. I've been to Decatur and it is a shiny new factory, but have all those efficiency improvements been worth the investment given EELV's glacial production rate?
QuoteThe use of extentible nozzle on RL-10. This really should be credited back to Delta III, but since the D-III never flew successfully but Delta IV continued to incorporate the B-2 engine and made changes to "upgrade" it. It deserves an honorable mention.
Gotta disagree with this one. The RL10A-4 has a nozzle extension (albeit much smaller), and nozzle extensions flew on IUS long ago. The DIV-specific improvements to the B-2 were rinky-dink, part of a normal variant development.
QuoteThe "hung stage" design on the 2nd stage. Again, this traces back to Delta III but D-IV continues this which was novel for U.S. launch vehicles. (Actually there were some interesting discussions as to whether we, the Delta, invented this or did MHI (japanese) invented first for the H-2 vehicle, but that's another discussion).
The DIV upper stage is very similar to DIII. In fact, Boeing promoted DIV as low-risk for that very reason.
QuoteWas the RS-68 really designed to cost? What was the final unit production cost of RS-68 compared to its initially projected cost during the CAIV process? :laugh:
I don't know the details, but design-to-cost was the general idea. In terms of unit cost, I think RS-68 is as competitive a design as has ever come out of a US program.
Gus - 1/7/2007 9:02 AM I did hear that the RS-68 expert took a job with SpaceX because an Atlas propulsion engineer went over to Delta to replace him with only a limited time to get a data dump.
Well, this RS-68 expert has decided to come back to Delta and agree to move to Denver. He will be doing other tasks in the Propulsion group instead. But another Boeing propulsion expert (ex-2nd stage prop-lead) is still at SpaceX and enjoying it.
The plan is to co-locate Atlas and Delta employees by engineering discipline. Not sure where she is sitting so I cannot confirm and I don't know what you are use to at HB. There is a lot of moving around between three buildings to prepare for the peak of relocations from HB in July.
We have it pretty good by most standard, some refer here as "campus" like atmosphere. Our 5 engineering buildings (5-quads) all have large windows with green grasses/ trees or nice court yards between buildings. Engineers have individual 8 X 8 cubicles with 5 foot walls, a large one compared to what they'll be getting at Waterton (from what I've heard). Managers/ Senior managers & Sr. Tech guys have individual 8 X 12 cubicles, some Sr. Mgrs have walled offices with doors. Most directors & VPs gets walled office with windows.
We hear that some of your managers/sr. mgrs have to share cubicles? Your directors gets a cubicle while the execs get really big walled offices. A big disparity?
Between buildings are "lounges" with vending machines for the employees, and some open work area for 1~3 person meetings and work area with ethernet plug-ins. Some buildings have "hide-out" rooms, indidual rooms with doors if you want a quiet place to work (or make a conference call), they have nice sofas, speaker phones and network access. It's a nice escape if you need to be on the phone and needed to be quiet or not to bother your neighbors, or just want to be alone, just bring your company-issued laptop.
Our cafeteria serve suprisingly good food based on comments from suppliers & customers. They serve 2 ~ 3 choice of hot entres, a separate grill counter, and a separate fresh salad counter. Tuesday is "taco" day and Wednesay is "sushi" day. Director & VPs eat at the same cafeteria food as workerbees since they eliminated the exec dinning rooms a few years ago.We still hear that Delta folks will be separated from the Atlas folks, despite the "plan" to co-locate.
According to my sources, the lease for the engineering buildings occupied by ULA in the Waterton campus is for two years. Add to that, it appears the Decatur facility has a lot of incentives to expand to maintain tax incentives (http://www.mceda.org/default.aspx?id=28)
A lack of long-term commitment in Waterton and a financial incentive to increase headcount in Decatur make this very plausible. I am approaching early retirement so if the move takes place after Dec 1, 2008, I can pursue a job back with LM Space where I have some contacts, or retire instead of relocating again, should this scenario become reality.
What did she see that would make her think that the Decatur move was imminent?
I think it's based on what she sees at Decatur, plus everything you've said confirms the "forces" are moving toward that direction.
The rumor here is that all/most of the Delta execs are NOT selling their houses in California. This is not instilling confidence to the troops. By the end of 2 years, they could come back to Boeing with "upward mobility" and still receive their $M bonus based on their contract with ULA. One could hardly blame the execs' though, afterall, by law the ULA will be completely separated from Boeing. So there will be only one Gass/Collins and one Sponnick/ Wilkins. 50% of the execs will lose their jobs. Where is the smart money on who gets to keep their jobs? :laugh:
Antares - 1/7/2007 12:09 PM
Besides, I hope someone in the DoD looks at such a potentiality from an eggs in one basket perspective and notes that such a move would be one large Nuke-Bio-Chem warhead away from totally erasing all of America's rocket engineering expertise.
Gus - 1/7/2007 10:02 AM
I did hear that the RS-68 expert took a job with SpaceX because an Atlas propulsion engineer went over to Delta to replace him with only a limited time to get a data dump.
WHAP - 2/7/2007 11:24 AMQuoteGus - 1/7/2007 10:02 AM
I did hear that the RS-68 expert took a job with SpaceX because an Atlas propulsion engineer went over to Delta to replace him with only a limited time to get a data dump.
Interesting how stories get twisted around. Your cause and effect are reversed.
Antares - 1/7/2007 2:09 PM
The bean counters and those who determine stock dividends of course want to move everything to the low cost of living in Northern Alabama. In practice, it's obviously harder than that, and no one is naive enough to expect it to happen seamlessly if at all.
Besides, I hope someone in the DoD looks at such a potentiality from an eggs in one basket perspective and notes that such a move would be one large Nuke-Bio-Chem warhead away from totally erasing all of America's rocket engineering expertise.
Propforce - 2/7/2007 3:13 AMQuoteAntares - 1/7/2007 12:09 PM
Besides, I hope someone in the DoD looks at such a potentiality from an eggs in one basket perspective and notes that such a move would be one large Nuke-Bio-Chem warhead away from totally erasing all of America's rocket engineering expertise.Not ALL of "... America's rocket engineering expertise..." unless you don't think NASA has any of those expertise.
OK I asked that question mainly tongue & cheek and I don't expect anyone (including myself) publish those numbers.
We have it pretty good by most standard, some refer here as "campus" like atmosphere. Our 5 engineering buildings (5-quads) all have large windows with green grasses/ trees or nice court yards between buildings.
Rob in KC - 19/9/2007 12:29 PM
ULA have been busy!!
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?cid=5230
bombay - 21/9/2007 4:47 PM
But can they produce? Word is they couldn't build more Atlas boosters/Centaurs even if they wanted to. Too many issues with bad forecasting, supply chain deliveries, and basic decision making relative to being postured to take on additional business.
The so-called "up-tempo" launch manifest (about 8 launches/yr) can't even keep up with what it was back in the 90's (as many 12/yr).
Jim - 21/9/2007 3:56 PMQuotebombay - 21/9/2007 4:47 PM
But can they produce? Word is they couldn't build more Atlas boosters/Centaurs even if they wanted to. Too many issues with bad forecasting, supply chain deliveries, and basic decision making relative to being postured to take on additional business.
The so-called "up-tempo" launch manifest (about 8 launches/yr) can't even keep up with what it was back in the 90's (as many 12/yr).
Whose word?
The average in the 90's was less than 8/year with only one year at 11
Jim - 21/9/2007 3:56 PMQuotebombay - 21/9/2007 4:47 PM
But can they produce? Word is they couldn't build more Atlas boosters/Centaurs even if they wanted to. Too many issues with bad forecasting, supply chain deliveries, and basic decision making relative to being postured to take on additional business.
The so-called "up-tempo" launch manifest (about 8 launches/yr) can't even keep up with what it was back in the 90's (as many 12/yr).
Whose word?
The average in the 90's was less than 8/year with only one year at 11
Dexter - 22/9/2007 12:19 AM
It makes you wonder what was wrong with the old two pad system that they used in 1995.
Jim - 22/9/2007 8:29 AMQuoteDexter - 22/9/2007 12:19 AM
It makes you wonder what was wrong with the old two pad system that they used in 1995.
Too small
Dexter - 22/9/2007 1:51 PMQuoteJim - 22/9/2007 8:29 AMQuoteDexter - 22/9/2007 12:19 AM
It makes you wonder what was wrong with the old two pad system that they used in 1995.
Too small
Huh???
http://www.nishkian.com/Complete/Dean_PDFs/SLC-3E_ARTICLE_12-04-03.pdf
Didn't seem to be a problem at Vandenberg Air Force Base.
pad rat - 22/9/2007 8:42 AM
Flight rate is predicated on *payload rate*. If you have the capability of launching twenty times per year, but only have ten payloads, how often will you launch?
It's not an easy thing to "grab launches" from Proton, given the price disparity between the vehicles, and the lead time needed to customize the launcher to the mission. Launchers don't tend to be "plug 'n' play".
BTW, ULA's combined manifest for next year includes 17 launches from the Cape. Seven of those are Atlas V's. IIRC, the western range includes 4 Atlas V's. Lessee, 7+4=11, and 11 is still > 8. Wow, math is cool, eh?
pad rat - 22/9/2007 8:55 AM
As for Atlas scooping up orders due to Delta's problems, rockets and payloads aren't plug 'n' play systems. It takes more time to remanifest a payload, do the mission specific mods and analyses, and provide the flight hardware, than it took to repair the Delta pad.