Author Topic: Best location for the first Moon Colony  (Read 16638 times)

Offline Warren Platts

Re: Best location for the first Moon Colony
« Reply #20 on: 06/29/2012 08:54 pm »
Wouldnt the plateau next to Whipple be out of direct line of sight communications ? For teleoperation, that would be a significant barrier.

Teleoperation? For what? If it's a manned outpost, the humans can do any wrench turning that needs to be done.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."--Leonardo Da Vinci

Offline savuporo

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Re: Best location for the first Moon Colony
« Reply #21 on: 07/01/2012 10:24 pm »
Teleoperation? For what? If it's a manned outpost, the humans can do any wrench turning that needs to be done.
I consider this as a form of extremism :) not really furthering the conversation.
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Offline Robert Thompson

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Re: Best location for the first Moon Colony
« Reply #22 on: 07/01/2012 11:15 pm »
Modern consumer gadgets creep towards HUD. It can be extrapolated that humans turning wrenches will take the form of a machine exhausting its automation for a certain problem, dialing home to its operator, they triage / deal / perhaps intuitively work around / order the thing back home for repair / suit up. Human teleoperators will still need to achieve all astronaut metrics on top of mechanics and engineering for the heavy equipment.

Online kkattula

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Re: Best location for the first Moon Colony
« Reply #23 on: 07/02/2012 03:51 am »
He said "Moon", with a capital "M", as in THE Moon. No confusion necessary.

....
What's the best location for the FIRST moon colony?

1)  It's only capitalized in the thread title, but so is the word Colony, implying the two together are a proper noun, i.e. a specific named occurrence.
 
2)  I think you're being planetist by suggesting that only the Earth's moon is important. It's not even the biggest moon in this solar system.

Offline Alexsander

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Re: Best location for the first Moon Colony
« Reply #24 on: 07/02/2012 04:57 am »
He said "Moon", with a capital "M", as in THE Moon. No confusion necessary.

....
What's the best location for the FIRST moon colony?

1)  It's only capitalized in the thread title, but so is the word Colony, implying the two together are a proper noun, i.e. a specific named occurrence.
 
2)  I think you're being planetist by suggesting that only the Earth's moon is important. It's not even the biggest moon in this solar system.

Of course I meant Earth's Moon (or Luna). IMHO it's quite obvious the FIRST moon to get a colony will be Luna. I mean, people argue about Luna vs Mars as a target for many reasons, but nobody suggests any other moon on our Solar System to get a colony BEFORE Luna.

Back to topic: it seems Luna's North Pole is the best location, specially because of sun light and potential ISRU.

Offline Warren Platts

Re: Best location for the first Moon Colony
« Reply #25 on: 07/02/2012 05:02 am »
He said "Moon", with a capital "M", as in THE Moon. No confusion necessary.

....
What's the best location for the FIRST moon colony?

1)  It's only capitalized in the thread title, but so is the word Colony, implying the two together are a proper noun, i.e. a specific named occurrence.
 
2)  I think you're being planetist by suggesting that only the Earth's moon is important. It's not even the biggest moon in this solar system.

Phobos isn't even a proper moon, it's just an asteroid that Mars captured. And yes, I agree that other moons, like Titan and Callisto are important in their own right. :)

Teleoperation? For what? If it's a manned outpost, the humans can do any wrench turning that needs to be done.
I consider this as a form of extremism :) not really furthering the conversation.

The current NASA plan is to use fully automated equipment manufactured by Caterpillar--no teleoperation necessary.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."--Leonardo Da Vinci

Offline savuporo

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Re: Best location for the first Moon Colony
« Reply #26 on: 07/02/2012 04:48 pm »
Teleoperation? For what? If it's a manned outpost, the humans can do any wrench turning that needs to be done.
I consider this as a form of extremism :) not really furthering the conversation.

The current NASA plan is to use fully automated equipment manufactured by Caterpillar--no teleoperation necessary.

Warren, i believe i have said this before. You would do yourself a huge favor by getting some basic education on modern robotics and automation.
You see, the word "automated" in this context does not mean what you think it means.

The platforms that Caterpillar is deploying now ( MINEGEM , MineStar and FleetCommander ), and others like Komatsu have deployed years ahead of them, are all human-in-decision loop systems, and will remain so for foreseeable future. These machines send back full telemetry link to the operations center, and maintain an override command link as well. At the slightest indication of out of nominal conditions that the low-level automated systems are not built to deal with, the machine stops and waits for an operator to make a decision based on received telemetry stream and send a next command. In other cases the full bandwidth telemetry is recorded on the machine and only reduced stream is sent back realtime, with full recent dataset uplinked on demand when a decision needs to be made.

Human in command center does not need to hold a joystick and drive each of the machines individually most of the time, but he is very much in loop, monitoring, sending high level commands, scheduling, and planning.
Truly, these systems are "semi-autonomous" and its important to understand that there are different degrees of autonomy that can be built into a machine.

The robots that go "hasta la vista, baby" are very much science fiction and will remain so, for foreseeable future.






Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Warren Platts

Re: Best location for the first Moon Colony
« Reply #27 on: 07/02/2012 07:02 pm »
I already have a basic education in robotics and automation, thank you anyway.

You just proved my point: teleoperation is not necessary. There will not be guys with joysticks determining every move. Therefore, your point that lack of LOS communications with Earth or wherever is going to be a showstopper for a Whipple Crater or other Farside propellant station is false.

In any case, most likely the mine site will be permanently manned anyway in which case there will be no latency to worry about. Even if it's not, a several second latency WRT Earth will not affect the sort of semi-autonomous, fully automated systems of the kind that NASA and Caterpillar are contemplating.

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."--Leonardo Da Vinci

Offline savuporo

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Re: Best location for the first Moon Colony
« Reply #28 on: 07/02/2012 08:22 pm »
You just proved my point: teleoperation is not necessary.
Erm .. What ? You must have a very strange understanding of the term.

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There will not be guys with joysticks determining every move.
Nobody said there would. What's this got to do with anything ?

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Therefore, your point that lack of LOS communications with Earth or wherever is going to be a showstopper for a Whipple Crater or other Farside propellant station is false.
Absolutely not. Like i just said, in every feasible scenario, you will need reasonably bandwidth intensive ( on the downlink side ) and decent latency bidirectional comm links from operations center to the machinery, with OC sitting on earth.
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Robert Thompson

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Re: Best location for the first Moon Colony
« Reply #29 on: 07/03/2012 03:05 am »
I'm prepared to conceive that initial tentative demo missions might be fully teleoperated from Earth through robust communications links. Heavily automated machines can outsmart most obstacles, most slopes, most slippages, but they dial home for help.

I'm not prepared to conceive that a lunar prop plant that means to undersell earth prop at EML2 can be conducted from an earth control station, no matter how good the communication. Statistically, there will be breakdowns, maintenance, dynamic conditions in the terrain and resource, space weather, extreme environment. A human has to be in the loop if someone is making $ at EML2. Perhaps -just perhaps- a minimal crew of two, to borrow the Zulu (1964) orderly contraction of the Mars threads.

I don't address the Spudis principle that we should set up a moon base with IRSU just because we should. It is farsighted, hyperopic, too wise, too responsible. (Same with Gingrich I think.) Won't work. Have to leverage greed or lust for discovery. I don't know anyone lusting after lunar science. I do know there's 8b planned for ESL2 that has a date with reionization, POPIII, primordial SMBHs. Find a way to link known scientific lusts and known greed for exploration with underselling Earth prop at EML2, and you get Moon. (Greason: 'make gas')

Offline Warren Platts

Re: Best location for the first Moon Colony
« Reply #30 on: 07/03/2012 03:07 am »
You just proved my point: teleoperation is not necessary.
Erm .. What ? You must have a very strange understanding of the term.

Quote
There will not be guys with joysticks determining every move.
Nobody said there would. What's this got to do with anything ?

Quote
Therefore, your point that lack of LOS communications with Earth or wherever is going to be a showstopper for a Whipple Crater or other Farside propellant station is false.
Absolutely not. Like i just said, in every feasible scenario, you will need reasonably bandwidth intensive ( on the downlink side ) and decent latency bidirectional comm links from operations center to the machinery, with OC sitting on earth.

OK, we're finally getting somewhere (I guess). The key word is "decent". And don't forget that the thread topic is "Best location for the first Moon Colony". On nasaspaceflight.com "colony" usually carries with it connotations of breeders; in this thread, however, I'm assuming he or she is more or less talking about the best site for a permanently manned station. But in either case, presumably, the "puppet masters" will be on North Rim, not Pasadena. In which case the (in any case needless) worry about latency goes out the window.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."--Leonardo Da Vinci

Offline truth is life

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Re: Best location for the first Moon Colony
« Reply #31 on: 07/03/2012 03:17 pm »
Antennas for lasers ? Satellites/relays would add lag, and positioning of a lunar relay sat is not trivial either. Not ideal in any case from comms perspective.

Yes, assuming you use an optical communications link then you put the receiving station in a location where it has constant LOS to Earth and then connect it using some kind of short-range solution (microwave repeaters or cables, perhaps) to the actual base, which may optimize its location differently. I see no real problems with this above and beyond those needed for the base in the first place.

It seems strange to me that anyone would assume either that there would be no need for ground-based, possibly intensive, oversight of early lunar manufacturing or that the ground would do everything. It's obviously a lot cheaper to have someone commute in from the suburbs than send them to the Moon, so it seems that pretty much whatever can be done on the ground effectively (eg., monitor plant conditions) should be done on the ground. Conversely, for the many things that cannot be done from the ground effectively (eg., repair broken equipment), then naturally astronauts on the scene would be employed.

The real problem with latency is going to come when the astronauts want to play Call of Duty with their buddies on Earth :)

Offline Warren Platts

Re: Best location for the first Moon Colony
« Reply #32 on: 07/03/2012 04:37 pm »
It seems strange to me that anyone would assume either that there would be no need for ground-based, possibly intensive, oversight of early lunar manufacturing or that the ground would do everything. It's obviously a lot cheaper to have someone commute in from the suburbs than send them to the Moon, so it seems that pretty much whatever can be done on the ground effectively (eg., monitor plant conditions) should be done on the ground. Conversely, for the many things that cannot be done from the ground effectively (eg., repair broken equipment), then naturally astronauts on the scene would be employed.

Which means you probably want people there 24-7.

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The real problem with latency is going to come when the astronauts want to play Call of Duty with their buddies on Earth :)

That's about the size of it...
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."--Leonardo Da Vinci

Offline Alexsander

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Re: Best location for the first Moon Colony
« Reply #33 on: 07/05/2012 02:55 pm »
It seems strange to me that anyone would assume either that there would be no need for ground-based, possibly intensive, oversight of early lunar manufacturing or that the ground would do everything. It's obviously a lot cheaper to have someone commute in from the suburbs than send them to the Moon, so it seems that pretty much whatever can be done on the ground effectively (eg., monitor plant conditions) should be done on the ground. Conversely, for the many things that cannot be done from the ground effectively (eg., repair broken equipment), then naturally astronauts on the scene would be employed.

Which means you probably want people there 24-7.

After the first months of operation as a mine, the colony could receive more habitat modules for other tenants -- scientists, tourists, etc.

Offline Rhyshaelkan

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Re: Best location for the first Moon Colony
« Reply #34 on: 07/19/2012 07:44 pm »
Colony? Anywhere on Luna.

As for where to start operations? I would say the lunar North Pole would be best. Water-ice trapping craters are not as deep for easier access. Proximity of solar rich areas.

Fuel -> Industry -> Colonization. This is why Mars is a non-starter. Travel times, teleoperation, solar input. The Moon is the choice to get mankind out of the Cradle.
I am not a professional. Just a rational amateur dreaming of mankind exploiting the universe.

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