Spaceport Colorado

[jimvela]

Yeah, how come its not west of Denver?

There are these things called the Rocky Mountains?
~Jon

Uh, Front range IS west of DIA (and Denver).  NW, technically.

Other way around.

You're showing DIA.  Note the directions go left (WEST) and up (North).

Front range IS NW of DIA.

[Lee Jay]

Yeah, how come its not west of Denver?

There are these things called the Rocky Mountains?
~Jon

Uh, Front range IS west of DIA (and Denver).  NW, technically.

Other way around.

You're showing DIA.  Note the directions go left (WEST) and up (North).

Front range IS NW of DIA.

No, Front Range is on my map (lower right).

[jimvela]

You're showing DIA.  Note the directions go left (WEST) and up (North).

Front range IS NW of DIA.

No, Front Range is on my map (lower right).

Then you have the wrong airport.

Front range is in Broomfield.  Formerly Jeffco (Jefferson County Airport).

US 36 and Wadsworth.

[edit- jimbo is wrong about the location. Duh. See later post]

[Lee Jay]

No, Front Range is on my map (lower right).

Then you have the wrong airport.

Front range is in Broomfield.  Formerly Jeffco (Jefferson County Airport).

US 36 and Wadsworth.

No, Jeffco is now Rocky Mountain Metropolitan.  Front Range is in Watkins.  Been there many times.  I've even stood out on the taxiway and tarmac.

[jimvela]

No, Jeffco is now Rocky Mountain Metropolitan.  Front Range is in Watkins.  Been there many times.  I've even stood out on the taxiway and tarmac.

RTFA.

I stand corrected.  Duh.

I had been thinking all this time that the proposal was for Rocky Mountain.

Front Range is a better fit- further away from the foothills, farther from population.

[Lee Jay]

Front Range is a better fit- further away from the foothills, farther from population.

And just about everything North, East and South is just a big bunch of nothing for hundreds of miles.  And if something were to splash in Limon, well, seems like every year a tornado does anyway.   

[jongoff]

Front Range is a better fit- further away from the foothills, farther from population.

And just about everything North, East and South is just a big bunch of nothing for hundreds of miles.  And if something were to splash in Limon, well, seems like every year a tornado does anyway.   

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you could do an orbital launch out of there that wouldn't pass over a populated area for hundreds of miles. You won't be launching expendables that drop stages, but for reusables might just make sense.

Now that I've gotten a copy of STK loaned to us, I may start trying to do some what ifs on trajectories out of there (assuming I find any spare bandwidth for fun in the next three months).

~Jon

[zaitcev]

I don't expect anything without drastic changes in the composition of the airport management. Locals saw a few of these intiatives before:

Call me when it happens. Let's see, what other revenue ideas have involved the area at or near FTG? Oh yeah, there was the NASCAR track, moving the National Western Stockyards, ATG's test center, a maintenance facility for Frontier,....

The answer is always "this time it's going to be different".

[Downix]

I don't expect anything without drastic changes in the composition of the airport management. Locals saw a few of these intiatives before:

Call me when it happens. Let's see, what other revenue ideas have involved the area at or near FTG? Oh yeah, there was the NASCAR track, moving the National Western Stockyards, ATG's test center, a maintenance facility for Frontier,....

The answer is always "this time it's going to be different".

THe NASCAR track does not even begin ground breaking until 2013, so how would this be the same for a project not yet begun?

[go4mars]

How much payload gain would an equivalent vertical takeoff rocket get by launching from 14000 feet versus 7000? 

(There are 55 mountain peaks in Colorado about 14000 feet)

[Lee Jay]

How much payload gain would an equivalent vertical takeoff rocket get by launching from 14000 feet versus 7000? 

Almost none.  And you aren't going to put a launch site on top of a fourteener anyway.

[jnc]

How much payload gain would an equivalent vertical takeoff rocket get by launching from 14000 feet versus 7000? 

Almost none.

Just curious, anyone have a number there? I mean, I know most of the energy needed to get to orbit is for kinetic, not potential,but still, it takes some fuel to get the rocket up to 14K, and some of that mass would turn into extra payload (some would be needed for the fuel to get the extra payload to orbit, it's not a 100% payback)... I've wondered about this every time I see one of those designs (e.g. very early shuttle concepts, IIRC) where the first stage is basically an airplane - and now that I think about it, Orbital did in fact use that approach for a while.

Noel

[baldusi]

Just curious, anyone have a number there? I mean, I know most of the energy needed to get to orbit is for kinetic, not potential,but still, it takes some fuel to get the rocket up to 14K, and some of that mass would turn into extra payload (some would be needed for the fuel to get the extra payload to orbit, it's not a 100% payback)... I've wondered about this every time I see one of those designs (e.g. very early shuttle concepts, IIRC) where the first stage is basically an airplane - and now that I think about it, Orbital did in fact use that approach for a while.

Almost all of the energy is horizontal, not vertical. What could benefit somehow from going higher, would be vacuum optimized nozzles. But the problems are such, that all the launch centers are low. Main consideration for a launch center is: logistics, attainable orbital inclinations, overflight risk and drop zones. Think of which high mountain top that is easy to access and has good logistics isn't surrounded by population centers. And remember that you have to take into consideration a line of may be 6000km.

[Lee Jay]

How much payload gain would an equivalent vertical takeoff rocket get by launching from 14000 feet versus 7000? 

Almost none.

Just curious, anyone have a number there?

0.06%, according to the CEPE spreadsheet.

[jnc]

the problems are such, that all the launch centers are low. Main consideration for a launch center is: logistics, attainable orbital inclinations, overflight risk and drop zones.

Actually, I was more interested in the 'height' aspect than the 'mountain' aspect (hence the mention of "first stage is basically an airplane").

Intesting point about the nozzle; so a 'launch' at say 40K feet (achievable with an air-breather) might actually do some good. (Now,whether that would be enough good to outweigh all the other factors involved in an air-launch....)

0.06%, according to the CEPE spreadsheet.

Thanks. Wow, that is a pretty small difference!

Noel