OMG it's the SpaceX Party Thread!

[Robotbeat]

Any settlement on a celestial body will be far /less/ libertarian in practice than possible on Earth. Think about it. On Earth, you can't buy up all the air. On a lunar settlement, whoever controls the air supply controls the population. It's much more amenable to tyranny than on Earth, to be honest. Our founding fathers said that if you don't like the gov't, you can just go out in the wilderness. In space, that means instant death so you are forced to live in a closer knit society with less individual freedom, since survival is much more difficult and resources much more constrained. Like District 13 in the Hunger Games (if you've read those books). Or the command economy during WW2.

I would say more like the Mars Colony in Total Recall

That's what I was thinking of with respect to tyranny.

Any settlement on a celestial body will be far /less/ libertarian in practice than possible on Earth. Think about it. On Earth, you can't buy up all the air. On a lunar settlement, whoever controls the air supply controls the population. It's much more amenable to tyranny than on Earth, to be honest. Our founding fathers said that if you don't like the gov't, you can just go out in the wilderness. In space, that means instant death so you are forced to live in a closer knit society with less individual freedom, since survival is much more difficult and resources much more constrained. Like District 13 in the Hunger Games (if you've read those books). Or the command economy during WW2.

You're not wrong, but close-knit communities where everyone performs useful work and where power can be easily abused tend to have robust republican institutions and a very alert citizenry.

That's the best-case scenario (and wouldn't be bad if we tried it out here!).

[Wyvern]

I always thought it would interesting if humans did develop interplanetary and/or asteroid/space colonies since much of popular culture and non-sci-fi literature is based around a single planet so I've always wondered what our popular consciousness would be like if humanity had multiple space colonies.

[QuantumG]

Any settlement on a celestial body will be far /less/ libertarian in practice than possible on Earth. Think about it. On Earth, you can't buy up all the air. On a lunar settlement, whoever controls the air supply controls the population. It's much more amenable to tyranny than on Earth, to be honest.

What's that got to do with anything? If you legally own all the air, I'll legally buy it from you in exchange for my services, or I'll go make my own air. I think you're falling into this "tyranny of the marketplace" nonsense that people use to cover what they're really afraid of: competing. In any small settlement, no matter where it is, the most valuable commodity is human labor.. there's a shortage of it, by definition.

Our founding fathers said that if you don't like the gov't, you can just go out in the wilderness.

They weren't libertarians.

In space, that means instant death so you are forced to live in a closer knit society with less individual freedom, since survival is much more difficult and resources much more constrained.

Hogwash. It is exactly when resources are more constrained that liberty thrives, because the individual's value is unquestionable.

[Dave G]

Any settlement on a celestial body will be far /less/ libertarian in practice than possible on Earth. Think about it. On Earth, you can't buy up all the air. On a lunar settlement, whoever controls the air supply controls the population...

The term "settlement" implies people intend to stay there.  So we're not talking about a permenantly manned base with rotating crews.  We're talking about people raising children.  I don't think that will happen until people are making their own air, and more importantly, thier own habitats to hold the air. 

[Wyvern]

Any settlement on a celestial body will be far /less/ libertarian in practice than possible on Earth. Think about it. On Earth, you can't buy up all the air. On a lunar settlement, whoever controls the air supply controls the population...

The term "settlement" implies people intend to stay there.  So we're not talking about a permenantly manned base with rotating crews.  We're talking about people raising children.  I don't think that will happen until people are making their own air, and more importantly, thier own habitats to hold the air. 

What if the inhabitants of a space settlement all live in a giant dome?  An O'Neil cylinder or one it's relatives could actually be a good place to be a tyrant.

[QuantumG]

What if the inhabitants of a space settlement all live in a giant dome?  An O'Neil cylinder or one it's relatives could actually be a good place to be a tyrant.

No more than any other place!

The argument here is that somehow the limited living space or control of resources gives the tyrant more power.. well that's true of anywhere. The question is: where is there more living space, here on Earth or the vastness of space?

Tyranny is not something we've eliminated on Earth that we're somehow in danger of regaining as we go to space.. if it's not a wash, then it's more likely the opposite.

[Dave G]

What if the inhabitants of a space settlement all live in a giant dome?  An O'Neil cylinder or one it's relatives could actually be a good place to be a tyrant.

No more than any other place!

The argument here is that somehow the limited living space or control of resources gives the tyrant more power.. well that's true of anywhere. The question is: where is there more living space, here on Earth or the vastness of space?

Tyranny is not something we've eliminated on Earth that we're somehow in danger of regaining as we go to space.. if it's not a wash, then it's more likely the opposite.

I agree.

50 years ago there were many movies showing how computers would take over the world and control us.  Now that the internet is ubiquitous, we have the Arab Spring.  Exactly the opposite is happening.  Computers are freeing people from tyranny.

If there were a real settlement on the Moon or Mars, I believe that would include production capable of expanding the settlement.  Sure, there may be large domes, but there wouldn't be only 1, and there would be smaller domes where the settlement is expanding.

[Wyvern]

Alright alright I admit defeat, I accept that space colonization wouldn't necessarily be beneficial to tyranny.

Perhaps the opposite is a more likely and interesting subject.  What if a moon colony suddenly declared independence from Earth's nations?  Not much Earth could do could it?  Especially if a whole bunch of moon colonies do it in mass.  Would be cool if Heinlein and other writers were right about space independence (like they were about many other things.)

Mars independence has always been a favorite of mine personally, I just like the idea of a whole planet becoming independent from it's former "masters." 

BTW it may be a good idea to move this discussion to another thread since this doesn't exactly involve SpaceX anymore. 

[majormajor42]

Return on investment. US taxpayers/Congress may not just want to let Mars go independent.

Will there eventually be indentured servants on Mars our other space colonies? What rights will those individuals have versus the wealthy settlers who may have funded the lesser's trip? I foresee complications.

Ever since seeing Thiel (an old Elon Musk business partner) on 60 minutes I've been following seasteading. I'm no Libertarian but I once worked in the marine industry so   I am intrigued. I hope seasteading has a legitimate attempt in the next decade or two because it may act as a laboratory for many of the issues that people are discussing here.  Besides the work that is supposed to take place on the ships/platforms, work that is very similar to what Elon envisions will take place on Mars (idea incubator stuff), they will also act as labs for self governance. The best will emerge in an evolutionary process, so they say. Irony may win out with the best model being the Kibbutz, who knows?

  I think it's been too long since America had a frontier (homesteaders) to use it as a good analogy for space. Seasteading may involve "citizens" with many similarities to those who may eventually be spacesteaders. The style of gov't that wins that process and works best on a platform 12-200 miles out at sea that's full of smart people may be examined as a possibility for those same type of individuals in space. Of course, all that goes out the window when their children grow up, seriously.

[Jim]

Return on investment. US taxpayers/Congress may not just want to let Mars go independent.

That has been my point all along, there is no reason for the US govt to fund a Mars colony because there is no ROI for the US Govt.

[apace]

Return on investment. US taxpayers/Congress may not just want to let Mars go independent.

That has been my point all along, there is no reason for the US govt to fund a Mars colony because there is no ROI for the US Govt.

Return of Investment or Region of Interest?

[oiorionsbelt]

Man you guys really know how to party!

[wolfpack]

The SpaceX party has gone on to Mars??? 

I'll have some of what you guys are drinking!

[rickl]

We'll be sitting here on Mars waiting to greet Elon when he finally gets here.   

[tigerade]

A very nice tribute video for this mission, with music:



 

[mr. mark]

Just a note about the video.. Orbital's Pegasus launch vehicle was the first commercial rocket to reach orbit. The Falcon 1 was the first liquid fuel commercial launch vehicle to reach orbit from the ground. Even that claim is suspect as almost all launch vehicles have been designed by commercial companies. I guess SpaceX could say that they are the first in house designed non government commercial launch vehicle to reach orbit from the ground. I must be getting older. I find the music track for the video annoying.

[rickl]

Very nice!  The only thing missing in my opinion was the remark about Dragon having a "new car smell".

[tigerade]

Just a note about the video.. Orbital's Pegasus launch vehicle was the first commercial rocket to reach orbit. The Falcon 1 was the first liquid fuel commercial launch vehicle to reach orbit from the ground. Even that claim is suspect as almost all launch vehicles have been designed by commercial companies. I guess SpaceX could say that they are the first in house designed non government commercial launch vehicle to reach orbit from the ground. I must be getting older. I find the music track for the video annoying.

Yeah, but I am figuring this video was made by someone who was pretty good at making videos like this, and not so good at spaceflight history.  So stuff like that we can generally "let it slide".

[rickl]

Uh, what happened?  "This video has been removed by the user."

[Thunderbird5]

Yeah, where'd it go?