Boeing Unveils Air-Launched Space-Access Concept

[QuantumG]

XCOR was looking at putting ~15kg into LEO (which might be enough for 1 or maybe 2 PPODs) into orbit for ~$500k. However, that was the full-wrap commercial price, not the marginal cost.

Wow, that's cheap! Last I heard people were still talking about dedicated cubesat launches for $1M.

[Danderman]

XCOR was looking at putting ~15kg into LEO (which might be enough for 1 or maybe 2 PPODs) into orbit for ~$500k. However, that was the full-wrap commercial price, not the marginal cost.

Wow, that's cheap! Last I heard people were still talking about dedicated cubesat launches for $1M.

Boeing can't change a tire on a military plane for less than $1 million, so this $300,000 launch number is likely to be a pipe dream.

BTW, has anyone ever recovered a "waverider" after a mission for re-use, and what were the costs involved?

[Lars_J]

Boeing can't change a tire on a military plane for less than $1 million, so this $300,000 launch number is likely to be a pipe dream.

Yep, so true.

And as Jon noted, it seems dubious that a 3 or 4 stage LV (depending on how you count) - each one quite different - will actually lower costs.

[Danderman]

XCOR was looking at putting ~15kg into LEO (which might be enough for 1 or maybe 2 PPODs) into orbit for ~$500k. However, that was the full-wrap commercial price, not the marginal cost.

Wow, that's cheap! Last I heard people were still talking about dedicated cubesat launches for $1M.

It should be noted that none of the people talking about dedicated CubeSAT launches for $1 million have made much progress in that direction.

Talk is cheap.

[QuantumG]

It should be noted that none of the people talking about dedicated CubeSAT launches for $1 million have made much progress in that direction.

Talk is cheap.

I'm pretty sure Tim Pickens could build you one in a year if the DoD didn't keep turning off his funding.

[jongoff]

XCOR was looking at putting ~15kg into LEO (which might be enough for 1 or maybe 2 PPODs) into orbit for ~$500k. However, that was the full-wrap commercial price, not the marginal cost.

Wow, that's cheap! Last I heard people were still talking about dedicated cubesat launches for $1M.

Maybe it was $750k. They don't give out numbers for that service as often cause it's still a while off.

~Jon

[jongoff]

It should be noted that none of the people talking about dedicated CubeSAT launches for $1 million have made much progress in that direction.

Talk is cheap.

I'm pretty sure Tim Pickens could build you one in a year if the DoD didn't keep turning off his funding.

Unfortunately Tim only got that funding because he teamed up with a company that has a knack for getting big earmarks from Senator Shelby (the fact that their main lobbyist used to run Shelby's campaigns I'm sure has nothing to do with the $50-60M in earmarked contracts this other company has landed from him). They skimmed most of the money off the top for "systems engineering", and left Tim with a tiny fraction of the money to actually build something. Unfortunately when Dynetics bought them, it shut off the gravy train, because Dynetics didn't want to use up its political capital to keep the earmarks flowing.

While I think Tim's idea had merit, merit had little to do with why it got funded in the first place or why it stopped getting funded at some point (no idea if they ever got that $$-hose turned back on or not).

But that's getting way off-topic.

~Jon

[jongoff]

XCOR was looking at putting ~15kg into LEO (which might be enough for 1 or maybe 2 PPODs) into orbit for ~$500k. However, that was the full-wrap commercial price, not the marginal cost.

Wow, that's cheap! Last I heard people were still talking about dedicated cubesat launches for $1M.

It should be noted that none of the people talking about dedicated CubeSAT launches for $1 million have made much progress in that direction.

Talk is cheap.

Yeah, raising money for rocket companies is a lot harder than talking about them. Most of the companies who've announced intentions in this area were never able to get much more than seed funding.

~Jon

[XP67_Moonbat]

Anyone know what this beast looks like yet?

[Danderman]

XCOR was looking at putting ~15kg into LEO (which might be enough for 1 or maybe 2 PPODs) into orbit for ~$500k. However, that was the full-wrap commercial price, not the marginal cost.

Wow, that's cheap! Last I heard people were still talking about dedicated cubesat launches for $1M.

It should be noted that none of the people talking about dedicated CubeSAT launches for $1 million have made much progress in that direction.

Talk is cheap.

Yeah, raising money for rocket companies is a lot harder than talking about them. Most of the companies who've announced intentions in this area were never able to get much more than seed funding.

~Jon

Let me play Bob Truax here and suggest that a tiny LV has almost all of the disadvantages of a big one, and few advantages. I guess not having to build a big building to work on the rocket is one.

But the killer is that the margins are pretty small. If you are trying to orbit 20 kg, and you are just a fraction off on your prop margins, you don't make orbit.

[Danderman]

Even though the quoted price would be cheaper price/kg than secondary payload pricing on EELVs it would be equal or more than secondary pricing on F9.

I don't know if anyone considers "SpaceX pricing" to be real, due to several factors.

[mrmandias]

Even though the quoted price would be cheaper price/kg than secondary payload pricing on EELVs it would be equal or more than secondary pricing on F9.

I don't know if anyone considers "SpaceX pricing" to be real, due to several factors.

A point, but I don't reckon these Boeing numbers are real either.  So if we're going to compare, we might as well compare guesses to guesses.

[RanulfC]

Anyone know what this beast looks like yet?

They now have a picture up:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_05_21_2012_p25-458597.xml&p=1

WK-2 with mini-Valk hanging underneath with an X-43ish looking delta wing stuck to it's nose.

Randy

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

With a standpoint of the secondary and small sat launch services market, for EELV's to carry any secondaries they will have to discount the price for them to be competitive to other providers. A "price war" could ensue for the secondaries market.

As for dedicated launch capability as being a value added enabling charging a higher price, only the government seems to be interested in this feature and they represent much less than 50% of the total small sat market. In order to reach 100 to 150 total launches a year, nearly the complete small sat launches that are launched globally would have to be launched on this one vehicle (I beleive the current total is closer to 50 a year or less). If they had half the current market price then I could see this happening but not with this stated price.

[Hauerg]

Anyone know what this beast looks like yet?

They now have a picture up:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_05_21_2012_p25-458597.xml&p=1

WK-2 with mini-Valk hanging underneath with an X-43ish looking delta wing stuck to it's nose.

Randy

That looks ... I don't know how to say this.... ahem... totally nuts?

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

Yeah, a single fin tail for the 2nd stage would not work because the mounting device to keep the 2nd stage from breaking off during WK2 flight would need to extend significantly onto the stage to hold it in place.

[Danderman]

Anyone know what this beast looks like yet?

They now have a picture up:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_05_21_2012_p25-458597.xml&p=1

WK-2 with mini-Valk hanging underneath with an X-43ish looking delta wing stuck to it's nose.

Randy

That is not going to be cheap to develop or fly.

[Zed_Noir]

Heck, maybe they should just hang a clone of the Midgeman ICBM underneath the WK2 for use as a small LV. 

[rklaehn]

Anyone know what this beast looks like yet?

They now have a picture up:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_05_21_2012_p25-458597.xml&p=1

WK-2 with mini-Valk hanging underneath with an X-43ish looking delta wing stuck to it's nose.

Randy

That has got to be the most ridiculous contraption I have ever seen.

[RanulfC]

Anyone know what this beast looks like yet?

They now have a picture up:
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_05_21_2012_p25-458597.xml&p=1

WK-2 with mini-Valk hanging underneath with an X-43ish looking delta wing stuck to it's nose.

That looks ... I don't know how to say this.... ahem... totally nuts?

Well maybe not "totally"... Mostly though... (Kinda like "Mostly Dead" but I digress )

Yeah, a single fin tail for the 2nd stage would not work because the mounting device to keep the 2nd stage from breaking off during WK2 flight would need to extend significantly onto the stage to hold it in place.

Uhm which actually ignores the "point" in that the second stage doesn't "need" or "want" delta wings nor a large vertical tail! It starts at Mach 4.5 and goes to Mach-10 and is a "wave-rider" or lifting body vehicle so you don't want any "extra" bits that have to be activily cooled hanging out in the "breeze" there! And then there is the question of what reason (other than wanting to put the word "scramjet" into the article 'cause it's "cool" you know ) would you have to keep airbreathing after you hit Mach-4.5 in the first place? The cited engine types (ATREX Deep-Cooled Air-Turbo-Ramjet, Air-Turbo-Rocket, etc) are all pretty nominally "good" up to around Mach-6 or better why stay down in the "soup" with a draggy air-breathing engine beyond that? Especially with a "small" launhc vehicle?

It's a "nice" picture but I suspect a ton of "artistic license" rather than anything official in it.

That is not going to be cheap to develop or fly.

I highly suspect we're looking at a "pre-DARPA" pitch or some other effort to get DoD funding for scramjet development really. I don't see this thing as being "cost-effective" given the stated design. Scramjets will be ok when they get the bugs worked out, but I don't see how they expect to get anything from such a small launcher with so much development effort and flight testing needed to get it running.

Randy