Author Topic: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac  (Read 10030 times)

Offline Danderman

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RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« on: 05/02/2012 06:53 PM »
I really didn't know that Rocketplane actually designed an engine, one that seems to overlap in capability and specs with Fastrac.

Rocketplane asked to get a loan of an RS-88 engine, the one that was designed as part of the Bantam program.

Apparently, Lockheed got their hands on the RS-88 Bantam engine, and worked on it for the Pad Abort Demonstration.

What happened to Fastrac is another question.



So, this thread is about the history and future of the Bantam and Fastrac engines.
« Last Edit: 01/26/2014 04:10 AM by Danderman »

Offline Prober

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #1 on: 05/02/2012 08:32 PM »
So, this thread is about the history and future of the Bantam and Fastrac engines.


Sounds like a very good thread.
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Offline Danderman

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #2 on: 01/18/2014 03:52 PM »
I gather that most people here don't know about the Bantamlifter program.

I used to have the habit of ignoring stuff that I knew was going to fail, so programs like Future-X or BantamLifter or RASCAL were outside my event horizon, even though people around me were talking about these all the time.  Still, uncovering the history of these programs would be instructive for the future.



http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/nexgen/news_NASA_press_release_c97-e_bantam.htm

NASA SELECTS FOUR COMPANIES TO DEMONSTRATE LOW COST LAUNCH SYSTEM TECHNOLOGIES


June 9, 1997

NASA took another step today toward making space launch more affordable in the future with the selection of four proposals for negotiation leading to contract awards for the initial design of a flight demonstrator of new low-cost launch system technologies.

NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL, has selected Universal Space Lines, Inc. of Newport Beach, CA; Summa Technology, Inc. of Huntsville; Aerojet-General Corp., Sacramento, CA; and Pioneer Rocketplane, Bladewood, CO, for negotiation. Anticipated total funding for the awards in fiscal year 1997 is $8 million. The contracts are expected to be awarded later this month.

During the next six months the selected companies will analyze the small payload market and develop low-cost launch system concepts and business plans for commercial operation of the systems.

The new launch system will focus on small experimental payloads that typically are not funded due to the expense of launch. This system could increase greatly the amount of research performed in space. Small payloads such as communications satellites and other commercial ventures in space also will benefit from inexpensive access to space.

The Bantam project will adapt common manufacturing techniques and existing commercial, off-the-shelf hardware to aerospace applications to develop new technologies and a resulting test vehicle. The goal is to develop a launch vehicle capable of placing a payload weighing approximately 400 pounds in orbit for $1.5 million. Today, that same 400-pound payload costs about $8 million -- or nearly $20,000 per pound -- to launch with current vehicles.

"Low cost is a primary objective of the Bantam system," said Garry Lyles, manager of NASA's Advanced Space Transportation Program at Marshall. "This project is identifying and developing low-cost component technologies that can reduce costs and make space transportation affordable. Now we are looking for ideas for actual launch systems that would incorporate these technologies."

The Bantam System Technology Project is one element of the Advanced Space Transportation Program -- a NASA initiative to reduce the cost of space launch and develop technologies for space transportation needs for the next 25 years. Marshall serves as NASA's Lead Center for Space Transportation Systems Development.





« Last Edit: 01/18/2014 03:58 PM by Danderman »

Offline Prober

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #3 on: 01/18/2014 05:17 PM »
Had no idea Pioneer Rocketplane, Bladewood was trying for this. You peaked my interest.  :P
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Offline MP99

Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #4 on: 01/18/2014 05:42 PM »
Had no idea Pioneer Rocketplane, Bladewood was trying for this. You peaked my interest.  :P

Piqued?  ;-)

Cheers, Martin
« Last Edit: 01/18/2014 05:42 PM by MP99 »

Offline Archibald

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #5 on: 01/18/2014 06:14 PM »
During my research on suborbital refueling I remember reading somewhere (but I can't find where, damn it) that Mitchell Burnside Clapp considered suborbital refueling for Pioneer entry into Bantam. Can't someone confirm or deny this ? 
...you have been found guilty by the elders of the forum of a (imaginary) vendetta against Saint Elon - BLAAASPHEMER !

Offline Prober

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #6 on: 01/18/2014 07:24 PM »
Had no idea Pioneer Rocketplane, Bladewood was trying for this. You peaked my interest.  :P

Piqued?  ;-)

Cheers, Martin
ahhh peak is a high temperature plastic used in the 3d printing industry.
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Offline Danderman

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #7 on: 01/18/2014 10:41 PM »
This 2004 NASA report gives the results of Bantam, and lessons learned.

Offline Lars_J

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #8 on: 01/21/2014 12:12 AM »
This 2004 NASA report gives the results of Bantam, and lessons learned.


Interesting. So Falcon 1 helped kill Bantam? The report slides do contrast them quite a bit.

Offline Danderman

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #9 on: 01/23/2014 11:05 PM »
This 2004 NASA report gives the results of Bantam, and lessons learned.


Interesting. So Falcon 1 helped kill Bantam? The report slides do contrast them quite a bit.

Bantam was long dead by the time Falcon 1 was conceived.

Offline R7

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #10 on: 01/25/2014 02:47 PM »
And the report refers to DARPA FALCON project, not particular LV.

future of the Bantam and Fastrac engines.

Bantam flies in CST-100, Fastrac already flying ?  :)
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Offline Archibald

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #11 on: 01/26/2014 06:29 PM »
During my research on suborbital refueling I remember reading somewhere (but I can't find where, damn it) that Mitchell Burnside Clapp considered suborbital refueling for Pioneer entry into Bantam. Can't someone confirm or deny this ? 

Merde, it was not Bantam but Rascal. So forget that.
...you have been found guilty by the elders of the forum of a (imaginary) vendetta against Saint Elon - BLAAASPHEMER !

Offline Danderman

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #12 on: 01/26/2014 06:33 PM »
During my research on suborbital refueling I remember reading somewhere (but I can't find where, damn it) that Mitchell Burnside Clapp considered suborbital refueling for Pioneer entry into Bantam. Can't someone confirm or deny this ? 

Yep. That was the entire premise behind the Black Horse concept.

Offline RanulfC

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #13 on: 01/28/2014 03:31 PM »
During my research on suborbital refueling I remember reading somewhere (but I can't find where, damn it) that Mitchell Burnside Clapp considered suborbital refueling for Pioneer entry into Bantam. Can't someone confirm or deny this ? 

Yep. That was the entire premise behind the Black Horse concept.

Actually it was "mentioned" in the article "One Stop to Orbit" by Zubrin as a possible step to orbital operations. The "premise" behind the Black Horse was sub-sonic, in-atmosphere refueling. "Technically" sub-orbital but... :)

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline Danderman

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #14 on: 01/28/2014 04:40 PM »
During my research on suborbital refueling I remember reading somewhere (but I can't find where, damn it) that Mitchell Burnside Clapp considered suborbital refueling for Pioneer entry into Bantam. Can't someone confirm or deny this ? 

Yep. That was the entire premise behind the Black Horse concept.

Actually it was "mentioned" in the article "One Stop to Orbit" by Zubrin as a possible step to orbital operations. The "premise" behind the Black Horse was sub-sonic, in-atmosphere refueling. "Technically" sub-orbital but... :)

Randy

It sounds like someone needs to start a thread about the history of Pioneer Rocketplane.


Offline Prober

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #15 on: 06/28/2014 03:30 PM »
And the report refers to DARPA FALCON project, not particular LV.

future of the Bantam and Fastrac engines.

Bantam flies in CST-100, Fastrac already flying ?  :)

time to bump this thread with recent news:  http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33141.msg1219927#msg1219927

brought up a lot of questions on the Bantam project

Tested liquid oxygen/kerosene engine dubbed 'Baby Bantam' has a thrust of 5,000lb.

Bantam engine family extends up to 200,000lb of thrust, and can be operated using various fuels, including kerosene, ethanol, methane and storable propellants.

Adapted from the design of the Atlas Sustainer engine, (had no idea on this one)

Anyone have links to the "family" listed above.  Never heard this before.
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Offline RanulfC

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #16 on: 06/30/2014 12:41 PM »
And the report refers to DARPA FALCON project, not particular LV.

future of the Bantam and Fastrac engines.

Bantam flies in CST-100, Fastrac already flying ?  :)

time to bump this thread with recent news:  http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33141.msg1219927#msg1219927

brought up a lot of questions on the Bantam project

Tested liquid oxygen/kerosene engine dubbed 'Baby Bantam' has a thrust of 5,000lb.

Bantam engine family extends up to 200,000lb of thrust, and can be operated using various fuels, including kerosene, ethanol, methane and storable propellants.

Adapted from the design of the Atlas Sustainer engine, (had no idea on this one)

Anyone have links to the "family" listed above.  Never heard this before.

I think this is Rocketdyne's "name" for the engine series not connected with the NASA Bantam program which from what I understand was an small-LV program.

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline Danderman

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Re: RS-88 Engine (Bantum) vs Fastrac
« Reply #17 on: 07/02/2014 03:24 AM »
FWIW, the 3D Printing story calls it a "Banton" engine.

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