CCDev to CCiCAP to CCtCAP Discussion Thread

[manboy]

OIG report on the Commercial Crew program

http://oig.nasa.gov/audits/reports/FY13/IG-14-001.pdf

[joek]

OIG report on the Commercial Crew program
http://oig.nasa.gov/audits/reports/FY13/IG-14-001.pdf

Thanks very much for that catch.  My take on a short version... Three major challenges identified by the IG and which NASA is working to address:

1. Annual program cost estimates.  Given the somewhat novel development and acquisition approach (i.e., SAA+FAR), NASA is still trying to figure out how to obtain reasonably accurate cost estimates.  Based on COTS and their experience to date with Commercial Crew, NASA now thinks they have enough data to provide such estimates, and will work towards providing them.

2. Alternative human rating requirements and standards.  The original objective was for NASA to provide resolution within 90 days.  They managed for some, but there has been a significant backlog, with some still outstanding after 9 months.  Timely resolution is important to avoid rework.  Part of those delays is due to the number of organizations involved (I counted 16 NASA groups), including inter-agency issues...

3. Inter-agency issue resolution.  There is no clear inter-agency resolution process and authority that abitrates between NASA, FAA, and USAF -- each of which have safety- and regulatory-related interests and concerns.  While NASA has had an ongoing effort with the FAA, they are expanding and formalizing that and including the USAF (specifically, the 45th Space Wing).

One other interesting tidbit from the report (emphasis added):

On average, the three Commercial Crew partners are contributing under 20 percent of the CCiCap development costs for their spaceflight systems. ... For comparison, partner contributions for the cargo development program were roughly 50 percent.

[Lar]

So long as you define "explore" as settlement, sure.

Last I heard, SpaceX isn't planning an exploration program, although they'd love to sell rockets and spaceships to NASA.

Read Elon's own words. He wants to open up Mars for settlement.
That's his driving goal.
All the profit he makes along the way is to fund that goal.

Yes, I agree, but "exploration" is not the goal. It's a means to an end - settlement - and SpaceX expects government - NASA and others - to do that exploring.

Whereas there's plenty of people who support "space exploration" but think settlement isn't the goal.

This.

Exploration is all well and good but we need space exploitation....

[savuporo]

16 NASA groups involved, inter agency roadblocks, miles of red tape, public funds footing most of the bill, downselect imminent .. sounds like COTS was an anomaly and everything is back to normal now.

[beancounter]

16 NASA groups involved, inter agency roadblocks, miles of red tape, public funds footing most of the bill, downselect imminent .. sounds like COTS was an anomaly and everything is back to normal now.

Not yet.  One can hope 

[rcoppola]

16 NASA groups involved, inter agency roadblocks, miles of red tape, public funds footing most of the bill, downselect imminent .. sounds like COTS was an anomaly and everything is back to normal now.

There is no arguing about the bureaucracy at play. And yes, it gets frustrating and counterproductive on all levels.
 
But Commercial Crew Capability is a whole other beast from COTS. And by it's nature will brush up against and sometimes slam up against many more legacy methodologies and interests. So I'm ok with giving NASA, USAF and FAA some additional time to figure this out and streamline the process. But not too much more time. Action needs to be taken now. Decisions need to be made.

As for only 20 percent skin in the game. I'm ok with that as well. It's still a fraction of what it would have been if NASA did this the old way. It's still a very good investment strategy that will pay major dividends in the long run. That's not to say it is without risk, all investments have inherent risk.

As for down select, nobody knows for sure what that's going to look like, so I'm not going to pile on just yet.

Needless to say, major programatic milestones are set to be reached throughout 2014. I believe this is the crux year. So hopefully all the key Governmental stake holders will get their proverbial sh&* together and make this work.

Personally, I believe they will.

[Lurker Steve]

COTS and CCDev are completely separate programs.
COTS was allow to go to completion without the same funding drama, mostly because they were asking for an order of magnitude less funding. Of course, neither vendor was allowed to fail either. It probably helped that the market for commercial cargo is well defined, with only a single destination possible.
Instead of focusing initially on just crew to the ISS, I think NASA lost its way trying to develop an entire commercial HSF industry, and they just don't have enough seed money for that. I think if CCdev has stumbled, its in that area.
 
 

[Robotbeat]

COTS and CCDev are completely separate programs.
COTS was allow to go to completion without the same funding drama, mostly because they were asking for an order of magnitude less funding. Of course, neither vendor was allowed to fail either.

Kistler failed and was replaced.

[BrianNH]

This is slightly OT, but I was looking for info on what is happening with human rating Atlas V.  ULA did not get CCiCAP funding directly, but did any of the funds for Boeing or SNC include work for ULA to upgrade Atlas and/or the pad?

Also, where are threads related to human rating Atlas V supposed to go?  There is a pinned thread in the "Commercial Crew Vehicles" section that says that they go in the ULA section.  The ULA section has a pinned thread that says that they go in the Commercial Crew Vehicles section.

[arachnitect]

This is slightly OT, but I was looking for info on what is happening with human rating Atlas V.  ULA did not get CCiCAP funding directly, but did any of the funds for Boeing or SNC include work for ULA to upgrade Atlas and/or the pad?

Also, where are threads related to human rating Atlas V supposed to go?  There is a pinned thread in the "Commercial Crew Vehicles" section that says that they go in the ULA section.  The ULA section has a pinned thread that says that they go in the Commercial Crew Vehicles section.

The George Sowers Q/A was in the ULA section, so I vote for keeping ULA specific threads over there.

[erioladastra]

Re: earlier question...


http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20131120/SPACE/131120008/?sf19694712=1&nclick_check=1

[QuantumG]

Re: earlier question...


http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20131120/SPACE/131120008/?sf19694712=1&nclick_check=1

Yeah, stranger than fiction. They've done well to keep a lid of this for this long.

[Kabloona]

Re: earlier question...


http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20131120/SPACE/131120008/?sf19694712=1&nclick_check=1

Quote from the article:

"However, according to the records, he “believed his advocacy with others on C.T.’s behalf was appropriate because he was familiar with her work product.”

He actually said that? Ouch.

[edkyle99]

Re: earlier question...


http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20131120/SPACE/131120008/?sf19694712=1&nclick_check=1

Quote from the article:

"However, according to the records, he “believed his advocacy with others on C.T.’s behalf was appropriate because he was familiar with her work product.”

He actually said that? Ouch.

More info, with a reveal of "C.T.".  Unfortunate.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/NASA-employee-at-KSC-arrested-on-forgery-charges/-/1637132/17851572/-/1rksf0z/-/index.html
http://petecrownasa.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/candrea-thomas-opf-directing-0427111.jpg
http://www.americaspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/DSC_2049.jpg

 - Ed Kyle

[Lars_J]

So you think the reveal is unfortunate, yet you link to stories and pictures identifying the individual?

A very strange case this is...

[woods170]

Meanwhile... in other news...

http://www.spacenews.com/article/civil-space/37916mango-steps-down-as-commercial-crew-manager

Mango Steps Down As Commercial Crew Manager

                        WASHINGTON ­— Edward Mango, manager of NASA’s Commercial Crew Program at the Kennedy Space Center in Florida has stepped down from his position and will be replaced on an acting basis by his deputy Kathryn Lueders, a NASA spokesman confirmed Oct. 29.

And now we know why mr. Mango suddenly left his office.
http://www.spacenews.com/article/civil-space/38262former-head-of-nasas-commercial-crew-program-faces-federal-charge

[JBF]

This whole matter is very minor. Look at the original case. She was fined  only 2 weeks pay, not fired.

 His mistake was loaning her money for the lawyer and then getting NASA to allow her to pay her fine over several pay periods. 

[deltaV]

More info, with a reveal of "C.T.".  Unfortunate.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/NASA-employee-at-KSC-arrested-on-forgery-charges/-/1637132/17851572/-/1rksf0z/-/index.html

According to that article C.T.'s drivers license was suspended for a DUI conviction and she submitted forged temporary drivers permits to NASA in order to retain her driving privileges at work. I've heard of private sector employee being fired for a first-time DUI even though their job has nothing to do with driving (nor any other heavy machinery operation). It amazes me that C.T. received a second DUI (didn't learn the first time), forged documents, continued driving at work with a suspended license, and yet received only a slap on the wrist (two weeks pay) as punishment. Now that the improper influence of Mr. Mango has been revealed will C.T.'s punishment be reevaluated by a neutral party?

[edkyle99]

So you think the reveal is unfortunate, yet you link to stories and pictures identifying the individual?

A very strange case this is...

I don't think that the reveal is unfortunate.  I think that the entire episode is unfortunate - for those involved, for NASA in general, for Commercial Crew, etc., but it appears that NASA has now done what it had to do and is moving on. 

 - Ed Kyle

[Chris Bergin]

Knew about it (and more) a few months ago. Opted not to report it.

Afraid it could get a lot worse on this story and for fear of this turning into a Lisa Nowak style thread I'm probably going to send you off to other sites if this dominates threads like this.

And as such, no, we're not having a splinter thread for those who'll want to keep it bumped on top. Have a think to yourselves and don't post unless it's absolutely required.