CCDev to CCiCAP to CCtCAP Discussion Thread

[SWGlassPit]

It's amusing to me how many LIKES there are in this thread, and which posts get them. Near as I can see, the harder someone bashes Boeing and/or the more loudly the proclamation of "the fix" or "backroom deals", the more LIKES the post garners.

Not very surprising, sad to say.

Yes, it seems the collective personality of this site has become rather ... different, as of late.  I can understand having a fan favorite, but I feel we've collectively forgotten why we came here in the first place.

I, personally, am disgusted by what I heard during the announcement and the teleconference. Not because SpaceX got less (I'm biased for SpaceX, I'm aware of that), they did fine. But how SNC got massively screwed over by corruption. Massive award to Boeing without justification given or about to be given in the near future. Probably some kind of rationale will be made public in the future, focusing on safety and the ETA crash no doubt), but that will likely be a sad joke.

Just as I predicted, according to the crowd here, if Boeing wins, it can't possibly be on the merits of their proposal -- it could only be corruption (based on... what exactly?).  The amazing peopleism and sour grapes are truly disgusting.

[brokndodge]

Did anyone listen in on the teleconference?  I thought I heard Kathy Lueders say that there were FAR regulations involved.  Does that mean that this is a FAR contract rather than SAA? 

[TomH]

So it's Dragon and DreamKiller.

Nonsense.  The loser was pipe dream

Substantiate this with specific details as to why. Convince me. You're usually right, but it doesn't help us understand unless reasoning is outlined.

[mlindner]

It's amusing to me how many LIKES there are in this thread, and which posts get them. Near as I can see, the harder someone bashes Boeing and/or the more loudly the proclamation of "the fix" or "backroom deals", the more LIKES the post garners.

Not very surprising, sad to say.

Yes, it seems the collective personality of this site has become rather ... different, as of late.  I can understand having a fan favorite, but I feel we've collectively forgotten why we came here in the first place.

I, personally, am disgusted by what I heard during the announcement and the teleconference. Not because SpaceX got less (I'm biased for SpaceX, I'm aware of that), they did fine. But how SNC got massively screwed over by corruption. Massive award to Boeing without justification given or about to be given in the near future. Probably some kind of rationale will be made public in the future, focusing on safety and the ETA crash no doubt), but that will likely be a sad joke.

Just as I predicted, according to the crowd here, if Boeing wins, it can't possibly be on the merits of their proposal -- it could only be corruption (based on... what exactly?).  The amazing peopleism and sour grapes are truly disgusting.

Winning on merits is ONLY valid at equivalent price levels. If you cost 1.5x as much and are 1.5x "better" does it actually show anything?

Actually, if you cost 1.5x and meet the same requirements doesn't that mean you are fundamentally worse? At my company we buy expensive products from our suppliers, but if a different supplier supplies an equivalent product at 60% the cost?... we'd drop our original supplier at the drop of the hat. That is Boeing here, right now.

Maybe Dream Chaser costed even more?

[Jim]

oeing has underperformed throughout this entire process by any objective measure except for the paper milestones they defined for themselves, while consistently winning the highest contract awards, which just goes to show how exceptionally talented they are at the peculiar game of government contracting.

How do you know that?

[Alpha Control]

Very disappointed for DreamChaser and  SNC. 

I surely hope that ESA and JAXA will want to step up. But that path is also a long and expensive road to travel, that their budgets may not support.  *sigh*.

Heading off to the Consolation Thread Bar for those pints now.....

[Nibb31]

Winning on merits is ONLY valid at equivalent price levels. If you cost 1.5x as much and are 1.5x "better" does it actually show anything?

We don't know the price that SNC was asking for. For all we know, they might have been more expensive than Boeing.

[mlindner]

Winning on merits is ONLY valid at equivalent price levels. If you cost 1.5x as much and are 1.5x "better" does it actually show anything?

We don't know the price that SNC was asking for. For all we know, they might have been more expensive than Boeing.

Yeah I just edited my post to mention that.

[deskpro590]

Silly question here.  Will the Capsules (CTS-100 and Dragon) get named as the Orbiters were? 

[Space Ghost 1962]

If one is going to complain, the least you can do is make the complaint accurate.

Boeing is "rear loading" the budget for its CST-100.

Major prime's have somewhat of a history of doing this, and Congress accepts this as SOP.

[SWGlassPit]

Winning on merits is ONLY valid at equivalent price levels. If you cost 1.5x as much and are 1.5x "better" does it actually show anything?

I reject that notion.  Do you only compare cars on their merits if they cost the same?

[mlindner]

Winning on merits is ONLY valid at equivalent price levels. If you cost 1.5x as much and are 1.5x "better" does it actually show anything?

I reject that notion.  Do you only compare cars on their merits if they cost the same?

Yes, of course! What else would (could) you compare them on? Emotion?

[Jim]

I predict that before CST-100's first manned flight, Boeing will be at least 100% over budget - and NASA will pay the difference plus full incentives.

I don't think that's fair. I doubt they will be double their bid. But I would expect overruns. That's their MO, after all. And I would expect that NASA will go to Congress and get the money and pay because what choice will they have?

Come on, it is a FFP, there are no overruns.

If you guys are going to bitch, at least pick a legitimate issue.

[mlindner]

How much whining is there going to be if SpaceX isn't #1?

How much whining will there be from some if they *are* #1?

I hope none. No one should realistically think they wouldn't be a good pick.

But no one should think that Boeing can't deliver either.

Given enough money anything can be done if it's physically possible. And there's no new tech in their design so clearly it's physically possible. But money... there's the rub. They are likely to be the most expensive based on what I've seen so far.

I predict that before CST-100's first manned flight, Boeing will be at least 100% over budget - and NASA will pay the difference plus full incentives.

I don't think that's fair. I doubt they will be double their bid. But I would expect overruns. That's their MO, after all. And I would expect that NASA will go to Congress and get the money and pay because what choice will they have?
.

Come on, it is a FFP, there are no overruns.

Is Boeing funding ULA out of pocket for the modifications needed for Atlas V to launch their vehicle?

[Jim]

Is Boeing funding ULA out of pocket for the modifications needed for Atlas V to launch their vehicle?

Who else is going to do it?

[robertross]

Extremely disappointed that SNC didn't get in, but the most important thing of all is that they finally HAVE made a decision, and the ISS can now get the domestic crew transportation services it so desperately needs.

I personally believe there were some political strings pulled, but such is life & the nature of the beast. Likely no way to prove it (or change it if it does come out someday), so we have to move on. I hope SNC can get contracts to keep DreamChaser alive.

A huge congrats out to SpaceX, and to Boeing.

One note on the follow-on contracts for actual flights. One never knows what can happen - the ISS could suffer a terminal failure, or Russia becomes problematic beyond reason, or the US goes bankrupt - who knows.

[Jim]

While that was true of CCiCAP, I thought CCtCAP was going to be a FAR contract?  Aren't the rules a little different in that case?

FAR does not mean strictly cost plus.  CRS and NLS are FAR FFP.

[JAFO]

"Space Industrial Complex". 'nuff said.



Just like Direct became the bloated SLS, this decision shows Nay-Say is still thinking it's 1965. I hope JAX and others fund Dream Chaser and is launching in 2016 while Boeing is funding another study to study a previous study.

[Borklund]

Is Boeing funding ULA out of pocket for the modifications needed for Atlas V to launch their vehicle?

Who else is going to do it?

Taxpayers? 

[mr_magoo]

Congratulations to Boeing and SpaceX.   May everything go smoothly.