Author Topic: Planetary Resources  (Read 380600 times)

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #580 on: 11/27/2013 03:05 am »
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Remember, space is already a $300 billion a year market and growing.

Yeah, which mostly consists of broadcasting reruns of Duck Dynasty...

A real feasibility study that clearly explains how to make even $10B/year from space mining has never been completed.

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If there already was a scalable business model, they wouldn't be a startup.
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #581 on: 11/27/2013 05:06 am »
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Remember, space is already a $300 billion a year market and growing.

Yeah, which mostly consists of broadcasting reruns of Duck Dynasty...
Oh, agreed! But a large and growing market is still a large and growing market.

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A real feasibility study that clearly explains how to make even $10B/year from space mining has never been completed.
What QuantumG said. ;)

Look, I'm much less optimistic about any kind of space mining in the next two decades than I am about continued space sector growth and even space tourism. But at some point, hopefully in my lifetime (but not guaranteed!), it will make sense to acquire supporting resources for the space sector in space. And eventually, perhaps as an off-shoot of that process, people will find and process resources rare and value-dense enough to be worth sending back to Earth.
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Offline guckyfan

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #582 on: 11/27/2013 06:42 am »
I really do wonder why there is not much more talk about Phobos. For interplanetary activities it is right where it is needed. It should contain lots of volatiles, hopefully including carbon. Probably enough gravity to ease handling of liquids yet low enough to make escape a non issue.

There should have been a flurry of probes descending on Phobos.


Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #583 on: 11/27/2013 07:41 am »
I really do wonder why there is not much more talk about Phobos. For interplanetary activities it is right where it is needed. It should contain lots of volatiles, hopefully including carbon. Probably enough gravity to ease handling of liquids yet low enough to make escape a non issue.

There should have been a flurry of probes descending on Phobos.
Its frustrating NASA hasn't done this. When we dropped lunar precursors I knew we weren't really going to the moon. Until we can afford to investigate Phobos/Deimos for ISRU I know we aren't really headed Mars.

For the little guys like PR though, nothing wrong with a piddly 5 meter NEO with much lower delta-V to visit.

Offline Mongo62

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #584 on: 12/17/2013 01:09 am »
These two papers appeared on ARXIV tonight. They would have obvious applicability to the chances for success of Planetary Resources, as well as any other asteroid mining ventures that may be created.

How Many Ore-Bearing Asteroids?

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A simple formalism is presented to assess how many asteroids contain ore, i.e. commercially profitable material, and not merely a high concentration of a resource. I apply this formalism to two resource cases: platinum group metals (PGMs) and water. Assuming for now that only Ni-Fe asteroids are of interest for PGMs, then 1% of NEOs are rich in PGMs. The dearth of ultra-low delta-v (<4.5 km s-1) NEOs larger than 100 m diameter reduces the ore-bearing fraction to only ~1 in 2000 NEOs. As 100 m diameter NEOs are needed to have a value >= US$1 B and the population of near-Earth objects (NEOs) larger than 100 m diameter is ~20,000 (Mainzer et al. 2011) the total population of PGM ore-bearing NEOs is roughly 10. I stress that this is a conservative and highly uncertain value. For example, an order of magnitude increase in PGM ore-bearing NEOs occurs if delta-v can as large as 5.7 km s-1. Water ore for utilization in space is likely to be found in ~1/1100 NEOs. NEOs as small as 18 m diameter can be water-ore-bodies because of the high richness of water (~20%) expected in ~25% of carbonaceous asteroids, bringing the number of water-ore-bearing NEOs to ~9000 out of the 10 million NEOs of this size. These small NEOs are, however, hard to find with present surveys. There will be ~18 water-ore-bearing NEOs >100 m diameter. These estimates are at present highly imprecise and sensitive to small changes, especially in the maximum delta-v allowed. Nonetheless the low values found here mean that much improved determinations of each of the terms of the formalism are urgently needed. If better estimates still find small numbers of ore-bearing NEOs then thorough surveys for NEA discovery and, especially, characterization are needed. Strategies for the two classes are likely to be different.

How Many Assay Probes to Find One Ore-bearing Asteroid?

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The number of ore-bearing asteroids could well be small and remote telescopic techniques are inadequate to identify such asteroids confidently. Finding an asteroid that can be profitably mined requires proximate observations from assay probes. Here we use a simple statistical approach to estimate the number of assay probes, Nassay, needed to find at least one ore-bearing asteroid at a high confidence (90%, 95%, 99%). We present results for a wide range of values of the probability of an asteroid being rich in the resource of interest, Prich. We find that Nassay depends strongly on Prich, for likely values of Prich (<0.5). For a plausible value of Prich~0.1 then to obtain 90% confidence that at least one ore-bearing asteroid is found, Nassay = 22, and for 99% confidence Nassay = 44. A factor two increase in Prich roughly halves Nassay, while even for Prich~0.5, Nassay (90%) = 4. Hence any improvement in asteroid characterization prior to sending probes to its proximity would be an effective way to cost-effectively search for valuable resources among the asteroids. Some possibilities for doing so are briefly discussed.

Online Vultur

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #585 on: 12/17/2013 05:27 am »
When this was discussed on unmannedspaceflight.com, someone posted a table that showed that chondrites were just about as good as all but the best iron-nickel asteroids. So why are they assuming only iron-nickel asteroids are worth considering? That would change the numbers enormously...

Offline Mongo62

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #586 on: 12/17/2013 12:28 pm »
Actually, that was me who posted that. I suppose it depends on what the economic break-even point is for different PGM concentrations, they might be considering only the lowest-hanging fruit in this case.

Offline llanitedave

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #587 on: 12/18/2013 01:18 am »
Ordinary chondrites are still far higher in iron and nickel than most ores on Earth, far higher in the case of nickel.  They also have reasonable percentages of platinum group metals and some are fairly enriched in gold.

Anyway, I don't understand the outsized importance of iron and nickel in these calculations.  For most structural, electronic, and chemistry applications in space, carbon compounds would be significantly more practical.
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Online Vultur

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #588 on: 12/18/2013 04:42 am »
Actually, that was me who posted that. I suppose it depends on what the economic break-even point is for different PGM concentrations, they might be considering only the lowest-hanging fruit in this case.

Yeah. And as far as I know, Planetary Resources hasn't said how they plan to extract/process/refine the metals.

Without that knowledge, I don't see how you can say what the needed concentration to be profitable is. So it seems to me saying "1 in 2000" or any other number at this stage is kind of meaningless.

 Admittedly, they clearly state their assumptions -- I just don't see why they are any more valid than any other set...

Offline dkovacic

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #589 on: 12/18/2013 12:21 pm »
Actually, that was me who posted that. I suppose it depends on what the economic break-even point is for different PGM concentrations, they might be considering only the lowest-hanging fruit in this case.

Yeah. And as far as I know, Planetary Resources hasn't said how they plan to extract/process/refine the metals.

Without that knowledge, I don't see how you can say what the needed concentration to be profitable is. So it seems to me saying "1 in 2000" or any other number at this stage is kind of meaningless.

 Admittedly, they clearly state their assumptions -- I just don't see why they are any more valid than any other set...
I think all these PGM and REE asteroid mining story is just for publicity. It does not make sense until high volume of space travel is achieved. What does make sense in the next decade is:
 - instant on-demand earth imagery
 - low-cost space telescopes (especially in infrared spectrum)
 - low-cost deep space communication relays (using later terminals)
 - low-cost asteroid interception/landing missions
 - low-cost asteroid sample return missions

The first target has existing and growing market. Low cost space telescopes would be of great interest in astronomy, so I think they have a market there also. Next three require interest and funding of government agencies (mainly NASA,ESA,JAXA) but the big IF is whether they will want to use "ready-made" solution from the commercial company.

Extraction of volatiles also depends highly on the development of human space program. If (and that is a big if) commercial space tourism takes off, they may have a market there. But before there are 20-30 people permanently in earth orbit and there are regular missions beyond earth orbit, it does not make sense. 1kg of water delivered to ISS currently costs around $100.000. That is more than the value of 1kg of PGM on earth.

The point is that, business wise, PR does not need to do any mining at all to be successful as a company. But if they do all these things, they can perform extraction of volatiles (primarily water) rather easy and bring it to LEO/L1/L2/LLO using solar electric propulsion. PGM is just a publicity stunt.

Offline savuporo

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #590 on: 12/18/2013 04:51 pm »
Did this interview get posted here  ?

http://spaceref.biz/2013/10/space-mining-entrepreneur-discussion.html

Good long discussion about business and finances of all the "space mining" companies, some good answers too about their partnerships etc.

In related news,
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-26/russia-south-africa-seek-to-create-opec-style-platinum-bloc.html
http://resourceinvestingnews.com/61898-norilsk-to-boost-platinum-palladium-production-with-10-billion-investment.html

I wonder how long before the resource industry giants will become interested in the space mining concepts and start funding it at low levels.
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Offline Warren Platts

Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #591 on: 12/18/2013 09:42 pm »
The problem with PGMs as I see it, is that the ores aren't that particularly rich. I mean, what are we really looking at for an iron-nickel asteroid: probably on the order of 50 ppm average? Yes, there is the occasional meteorite in the ~90 ppm range, but these are small hand samples, AFAIK. True, 50 ppm would be considered a fine ore on Earth, but considering the deposit is in space, it's still a lot of work. Far easier and more profitable to offer surveillance services. I mean imagine a thousand unit constellation tied together with high-band width laser communications that could keep several places under surveillance 24-7. It would no longer be possible for targets to time their activities to avoid satellites. Such a capability would be worth a lot to outfits like the NRO, NSA, CIA, FBI, DEA, DIA, USN, USAF, etc.  ;)
« Last Edit: 12/18/2013 09:50 pm by Warren Platts »
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Offline savuporo

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #592 on: 12/18/2013 10:10 pm »
The problem with PGMs as I see it, is that the ores aren't that particularly rich. I mean, what are we really looking at for an iron-nickel asteroid: probably on the order of 50 ppm average?
This has been discussed above i believe, and IIRC the two active sites in South Africa and Russia where most of worlds PGMs come from are in the range of 0.5 ppm or so. So, two orders of magnitude.
However, i dont think the issue is not of the quality of the best ores available on earth. I think the issue is where these are and who exactly has access to them. Also, robots in space will probably not cause riots and price fluctuations ..

BTW, there is a relatively recent and apparently pretty comprehensive book on the subject ( and an earlier one by the same editor about lunar resources )
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Offline go4mars

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #593 on: 12/18/2013 11:47 pm »
http://spaceref.biz/2013/10/space-mining-entrepreneur-discussion.html
Great interview.  Thanks for posting!

Anyone know who/what process is reducing the production cost of titanium by 2 orders of magnitude?  First I've heard of that!
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Offline Mongo62

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #594 on: 12/19/2013 07:53 pm »
Anyone know who/what process is reducing the production cost of titanium by 2 orders of magnitude?  First I've heard of that!

That sounds like the FCC Cambridge Process. An IP company called Metalysis has the patents for the process.

From a PDF about the FFC Cambridge Process:

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Recently, researchers at the Materials Science & Metallurgy department of the Cambridge university, UK have reported a novel process for production of metals and alloys from their solid oxides directly by molten salt electrolysis. The process called ‘FFC (Fray-Farthing-Chen) Cambridge process’ was discovered in 1997 by observing that it was possible to reduce solid oxide films on titanium foil by making the foil cathode in a bath of molten calcium chloride. Subsequently, it was demonstrated that it was possible to reduce solid titanium oxide pellets. The feasibility of electro deoxidation of many metal oxides was established in laboratory experiments and the process was globally patented in 1998. The process is reportedly more suitable for electro reduction of the high-melting transition metal oxides and actinides. It is claimed that titanium metal can be produced cost-effectively and in a more environmentally friendly way by the FFC process. The high demand for titanium metal and its high cost of production by the current Kroll process has therefore generated a lot of interest in the new process worldwide. The process is being discussed as one with immense potential to change the entire scenario of extractive metallurgy.

« Last Edit: 12/19/2013 07:56 pm by Mongo62 »

Offline go4mars

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #595 on: 12/29/2013 01:50 pm »
Thanks Mongo62.

With the ability to do high-fidelity and large-size 3D printing of titanium, I'm expecting to see some interesting applications arise as the price comes down! 
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Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #596 on: 01/13/2014 09:24 pm »
Well, bad news for space mining fans: A new Harvard study, reported on by the BBC, suggests that the number of near-Earth objects with commercially-viable mineral content may have been over-estimated by a factor of 100!

It's still all basically inspired guesswork but, IMHO, published studies like this will make it harder for PR to find venture capital and other forms of investment.
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #597 on: 01/13/2014 09:51 pm »
...actually, I'd say it's good news. Most people assume there are /zero/ commercially exploitable asteroids out there.

10 large near-Earth iron-nickel asteroids (i.e. bigger than 100m) is great. And certainly there are a bunch of C-type asteroids as well.
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Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #598 on: 01/13/2014 09:59 pm »
Well, bad news for space mining fans: A new Harvard study, reported on by the BBC, suggests that the number of near-Earth objects with commercially-viable mineral content may have been over-estimated by a factor of 100!

It's still all basically inspired guesswork but, IMHO, published studies like this will make it harder for PR to find venture capital and other forms of investment.

What was thier definition of commercially-viable mineral content. Pure silicon in space is of high value (soloar arrays) and there is a lot of it. Evaluating asteriods value using Earth mineral value standards does not work.

Plus the assumptions of mining to transport the results back to Earth would also be false. Material in space is worth more than the same material on Earth. At least for quite a few decades to come.

Offline Excession

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Re: Planetary Resources
« Reply #599 on: 01/14/2014 03:15 am »
The pre-print is available in full on Arxiv. I've certainly added it to my reading list...

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