Planetary Resources

[JohnFornaro]

In the PRI context, the answer is "we know", because (a) they said so; and (b) if you crunch the numbers, the inescapable conclusion is that they must refine any PGM's on site in order to be worth it: to get billion dollar amounts of PGM's requires asteroids that are too big to be practical for retrieving back to Earth orbit.

Why focus only on PGMs? Even iron ore would do: remember it's already on space, that's a huge cost saving for potential buyers. Anything they mine would compete against $20,000/kg (from Earth to LEO). An orbiting steel mill could provide material for space stations, for example.

If you should reflect for a minute, you'd be able to answer that question:

The thread's focus on PGM's is because they are a heck of a lot more valuable than iron. 

Even tho, as you suggest, a pound of feathers and a pound of iron could be launched from Earth at aboutthe same price, you're failing to acknowledge that it is what it is that you are launching that carries value.

Moving back up to space; what you are missing is that while they may need a whole lot more iron to build an O'Neil cylinder, say, than platinum; the cost of refining, the cost of manufacturing, and the cost of assembling such a structure are huge line items.

Right now, the thread is just considering the PGM possibility at the moment.  Ores, and lesser minerals just don't seem to have bill-yuns of dollars worth of value.  Nobody's really speculating about what to make up there just yet.

[Danderman]

Back in the 1990s, I looked at the emerging RLV/new launcher sector and concluded that if they were to be successful, there would be a demand for pressurized habitable space in orbit; consequently, I proposed that the Mir space station not be de-orbited, but rather put into a storage orbit for some years, after which it could be revived and used by customers of those new launchers.

This became the kernel of someone's business plan, but it turned out to be premature, since the new launchers were many years away from becoming real.

If any company today proposed to exploit minerals in space for users in space, I would suggest that no person alive today would ever make a dollar off such an effort.  This not to say that it won't be useful someday, but not very soon.

And yes, we are still a few years away from a hypothetical Mir space station having any value in orbit.

I would suggest that discussions of mineral exploitation for customers in space be moved to the Advanced Concepts section.

[Robotbeat]

Back in the 1990s, I looked at the emerging RLV/new launcher sector and concluded that if they were to be successful, there would be a demand for pressurized habitable space in orbit; consequently, I proposed that the Mir space station not be de-orbited, but rather put into a storage orbit for some years, after which it could be revived and used by customers of those new launchers.

This became the kernel of someone's business plan, but it turned out to be premature, since the new launchers were many years away from becoming real.

If any company today proposed to exploit minerals in space for users in space, I would suggest that no person alive today would ever make a dollar off such an effort.  This not to say that it won't be useful someday, but not very soon.

And yes, we are still a few years away from a hypothetical Mir space station having any value in orbit.

I would suggest that discussions of mineral exploitation for customers in space be moved to the Advanced Concepts section.

Not appropriate for Advanced Concepts simply because you didn't think of it or you think it's less viable. There's a real company with real funding behind it that is pursuing the goal actively. That means it's appropriate for the commercial spaceflight section, whether or not you think it will turn a profit.

Sorry for being abrasive, but this is a real project as real as anything Bigelow is doing (with the possible exception of an ISS module).

[Alexsander]

Moving back up to space; what you are missing is that while they may need a whole lot more iron to build an O'Neil cylinder, say, than platinum; the cost of refining, the cost of manufacturing, and the cost of assembling such a structure are huge line items.

Right now there are commercial portable steel factories -- like Framecad's "Factory in a can", housed in a modified 20-foot shipping container -- in the market. This particular product makes 700 m/h of steel frames from steel coils.

Imagine a space-ready version of this "portable steel factory" in a size/weight that could be sent up to LEO with the current launchers. A factory like this could be a major milestone for building huge structures on space and could probably be done with current technology.

However it would need a constant supply of steel coils from Earth -- and they are HEAVY. Technically it is the easiest part: right now it's possible (not cheap) to pack a rocket with a few tons of steel coils.

Now imagine a bunch of factories in orbit making parts for a huge space steel mill that makes steel coils from iron ore. I think Planetary Resources wants to be a major supplier of iron ore for this mill.

[Danderman]

I would suggest that discussions of mineral exploitation for customers in space be moved to the Advanced Concepts section.

Not appropriate for Advanced Concepts simply because you didn't think of it or you think it's less viable. There's a real company with real funding behind it that is pursuing the goal actively. That means it's appropriate for the commercial spaceflight section, whether or not you think it will turn a profit.

Sorry for being abrasive, but this is a real project as real as anything Bigelow is doing (with the possible exception of an ISS module).

Nope. Planetary Resources has no public plans for extracting minerals for users in space. if you have any information about that, please share.

[Danderman]

Moving back up to space; what you are missing is that while they may need a whole lot more iron to build an O'Neil cylinder, say, than platinum; the cost of refining, the cost of manufacturing, and the cost of assembling such a structure are huge line items.

Right now there are commercial portable steel factories -- like Framecad's "Factory in a can", housed in a modified 20-foot shipping container -- in the market. This particular product makes 700 m/h of steel frames from steel coils.

Imagine a space-ready version of this "portable steel factory" in a size/weight that could be sent up to LEO with the current launchers. A factory like this could be a major milestone for building huge structures on space and could probably be done with current technology.

However it would need a constant supply of steel coils from Earth -- and they are HEAVY. Technically it is the easiest part: right now it's possible (not cheap) to pack a rocket with a few tons of steel coils.

Now imagine a bunch of factories in orbit making parts for a huge space steel mill that makes steel coils from iron ore. I think Planetary Resources wants to be a major supplier of iron ore for this mill.

I believe that G. Harry Stine wrote a book called "the second Industrial Revolution" in which he described a similar beam builder in the Shuttle payload bay.

None of this has anything to do with the issue of a company extracting PGM bearing minerals from asteroids for users in space, but you are welcome to set up a thread in the Advanced Concepts section.

[Alexsander]

Nope. Planetary Resources has no public plans for extracting minerals for users in space. if you have any information about that, please share.

Are you sure? From their own website:
http://www.planetaryresources.com/technology/

Recovery and processing of materials in a microgravity environment will occur through significant research and development. Planetary Resources will lead the creation of critical in-situ extraction and processing technologies to provide access to both asteroidal water and metals. When combined with our low-cost deep space explorers, this represents an enabling capability for the sustainable development of space.

[Danderman]

Nope. Planetary Resources has no public plans for extracting minerals for users in space. if you have any information about that, please share.

Are you sure? From their own website:
http://www.planetaryresources.com/technology/

Recovery and processing of materials in a microgravity environment will occur through significant research and development. Planetary Resources will lead the creation of critical in-situ extraction and processing technologies to provide access to both asteroidal water and metals. When combined with our low-cost deep space explorers, this represents an enabling capability for the sustainable development of space.

I am NOT saying that PR does not plan to extract minerals in space.

But not for "users in space". The point here is a business plan based on selling to people in outer space is probably a little far term for anyone to invest in now.

The exception might be for NASA to buy water for astronauts, but even that requires loads of fairy dust to believe.

[Alexsander]

Nope. Planetary Resources has no public plans for extracting minerals for users in space. if you have any information about that, please share.

Are you sure? From their own website:
http://www.planetaryresources.com/technology/

Recovery and processing of materials in a microgravity environment will occur through significant research and development. Planetary Resources will lead the creation of critical in-situ extraction and processing technologies to provide access to both asteroidal water and metals. When combined with our low-cost deep space explorers, this represents an enabling capability for the sustainable development of space.

I am NOT saying that PR does not plan to extract minerals in space.

But not for "users in space". The point here is a business plan based on selling to people in outer space is probably a little far term for anyone to invest in now.

The exception might be for NASA to buy water for astronauts, but even that requires loads of fairy dust to believe.

Not now -- but they are still designing and building their "step one" product, the ARKYD 100 space telescope. There's a long way to go, it's NOT a short-term plan, PR is betting that by the time they finish "significant research and development" to have a working mining facility, the customers will be there.

[simonbp]

I'm not sure what all this talk of Earth ore is all about; it has very little to real asteroid lithology.

The low-hanging-fruit of asteroid PGMs are going to be M-type asteroids with a primarily metal composition. The "ore" is then really the solid iron-nickel the PGMs are dissolved in. You could refine it in space with a solar heater and a centrifuge (as all the PGMs are heavier than iron), or just bring the whole thing down. Spraying a solid block of iron-nickel with some cheap ablative insulation and attaching a parachute pack to it is more than sufficient to get down. Combined that with NRO-style aircraft capture of the parachute, and getting stuff down in bulk is not really an issue.

[Danderman]

Not now -- but they are still designing and building their "step one" product, the ARKYD 100 space telescope. There's a long way to go, it's NOT a short-term plan, PR is betting that by the time they finish "significant research and development" to have a working mining facility, the customers will be there.

There is no public information to suggest that PR is expecting to sell PGM materials for customers in space. All of their information suggests that their current plan is to move small asteroids to lunar orbit for magical transfer to Earth.

During their press conference, they talked about the impact of cheap PGM materials here on Earth.

[Danderman]

I'm not sure what all this talk of Earth ore is all about; it has very little to real asteroid lithology.

The low-hanging-fruit of asteroid PGMs are going to be M-type asteroids with a primarily metal composition. The "ore" is then really the solid iron-nickel the PGMs are dissolved in. You could refine it in space with a solar heater and a centrifuge (as all the PGMs are heavier than iron), or just bring the whole thing down. Spraying a solid block of iron-nickel with some cheap ablative insulation and attaching a parachute pack to it is more than sufficient to get down. Combined that with NRO-style aircraft capture of the parachute, and getting stuff down in bulk is not really an issue.

Pushing bulk in space costs more money than the bulk is worth. That's the problem.

And the refining/handwaving you suggest does not lend itself to actual practice.  For example, I could suggest that injection of anti-virals into selected tumor cells is a cure for cancer, but that doesn't really cure anyone.  If you want to convince people, you might demonstrate existing centrifuge systems that could be useful in zero-gravity for separation of PGMs from the rock and other stuff.

[Robotbeat]

I would suggest that discussions of mineral exploitation for customers in space be moved to the Advanced Concepts section.

Not appropriate for Advanced Concepts simply because you didn't think of it or you think it's less viable. There's a real company with real funding behind it that is pursuing the goal actively. That means it's appropriate for the commercial spaceflight section, whether or not you think it will turn a profit.

Sorry for being abrasive, but this is a real project as real as anything Bigelow is doing (with the possible exception of an ISS module).

Nope. Planetary Resources has no public plans for extracting minerals for users in space. if you have any information about that, please share.

Ah, yes. My apologies. I thought you were referring to asteroid mineral mining in general. You're right, they have no such plans that I'm aware of. And that probably does belong in Advanced Concepts until such time as a space manufacturing company is announced.

[Wyvern]

Here's a very interesting video about Planetary Resources by Eric Anderson.

http://www.nss.org/resources/library/videos/ISDC12anderson.html

The video goes into detail about Planetary Resources technical plan and other details about asteroid mining. 

[Warren Platts]

I would suggest that discussions of mineral exploitation for customers in space be moved to the Advanced Concepts section.

Not appropriate for Advanced Concepts simply because you didn't think of it or you think it's less viable. There's a real company with real funding behind it that is pursuing the goal actively. That means it's appropriate for the commercial spaceflight section, whether or not you think it will turn a profit.

Sorry for being abrasive, but this is a real project as real as anything Bigelow is doing (with the possible exception of an ISS module).

Nope. Planetary Resources has no public plans for extracting minerals for users in space. if you have any information about that, please share.

Ah, yes. My apologies. I thought you were referring to asteroid mineral mining in general. You're right, they have no such plans that I'm aware of. And that probably does belong in Advanced Concepts until such time as a space manufacturing company is announced.

Huh? Their "plan", such as it is, is to go for extracting chemically bound hydroxyl groups from asbestos-like serpentine minerals in CI-type asteroids. They certainly aren't going to be shipping rocket fuel to Earth. Therefore, said rocket fuel will be "for" users in space.

[Robotbeat]

I would suggest that discussions of mineral exploitation for customers in space be moved to the Advanced Concepts section.

Not appropriate for Advanced Concepts simply because you didn't think of it or you think it's less viable. There's a real company with real funding behind it that is pursuing the goal actively. That means it's appropriate for the commercial spaceflight section, whether or not you think it will turn a profit.

Sorry for being abrasive, but this is a real project as real as anything Bigelow is doing (with the possible exception of an ISS module).

Nope. Planetary Resources has no public plans for extracting minerals for users in space. if you have any information about that, please share.

Ah, yes. My apologies. I thought you were referring to asteroid mineral mining in general. You're right, they have no such plans that I'm aware of. And that probably does belong in Advanced Concepts until such time as a space manufacturing company is announced.

Huh? Their "plan", such as it is, is to go for extracting chemically bound hydroxyl groups from asbestos-like serpentine minerals in CI-type asteroids. They certainly aren't going to be shipping rocket fuel to Earth. Therefore, said rocket fuel will be "for" users in space.

I know. I said minerals, but I suppose I should've said metals.

[Danderman]

Huh? Their "plan", such as it is, is to go for extracting chemically bound hydroxyl groups from asbestos-like serpentine minerals in CI-type asteroids. They certainly aren't going to be shipping rocket fuel to Earth. Therefore, said rocket fuel will be "for" users in space.

My point was that PR has no plans to exploit PGM materials for users in space.

[ncb1111]

Here are the "magic" refining techniques.

If pure platinum is found in placer deposits or other ores, it is isolated from them by various methods of subtracting impurities. Because platinum is significantly denser than many of its impurities, the lighter impurities can be removed by simply floating them away in a liquid. Platinum is also nonmagnetic, while nickel and iron are both magnetic. These two impurities are thus removed by running an electromagnet over the mixture. Because platinum has a higher melting point than most other substances, many impurities can be burned or melted away without melting the platinum. Finally, platinum is resistant to hydrochloric and sulfuric acids, while other substances are readily attacked by them. Metal impurities can be removed by stirring the mixture in either of the two acids and recovering the remaining platinum.[43]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platinum

Of course, this is all using very basic refining principles: using the unique properties of a material to isolate it. I see no limiters for why they can't be done off earth like on earth. For simulated gravity to take advantage of the difference in density, that is where a centrifuge comes in. Of course, the acid approach consumes material to produce ferrous sulfate from sulfuric acid consuming the acid and producing hydrogen. That should probably be avoided.

One could envision a reusable mining ship using solar electric propulsion of ionizable material mined on an asteroid to get to the next asteroid. When at your objective, you aren't using SEP so the electric energy is redirected to mining efforts. Alternatively, the cargo carriers that get sent from earth to pick up the material would bring the propellant on the way there using the internal volume for the cargo on the way back. Both of these techniques kill two birds with one stone.

The economics of this really depend on launch cost and material price. At 20,000/kg and platinum at 50,000/kg(2.5:1), it is most likely a losing proposition. At 2,000/kg and platinum at 64,000/kg(May 2011 price, 32:1), it is conceivable that you could turn a profit. 

[oldAtlas_Eguy]

This is a starting point for discussions and point out that not everything will be done at the start.

In processing the material from an asteroid:

Step 1> Remove material from asteroid.
Step 2> Crush rock into a fine sand.
Step 3> Process the sand to remove bonded water. This is not the processing of oxides to remove the oxygen.
Step 4> Processing of ore to concentrate the metallic content and remove non-metallic content for other processing.
Step 5a> Separation of magnetic metals ore from non-magnetic metals ore.
Step 5b> Separation of non-metallic rare earths from non-metallic ore.
Step 6a> Smelting magnetic metals producing high quality metal ingots and slag.
Step 6b> Smelting non-magnetic metals producing high quality metal ingots and slag.
Step 6c> Process/ concentrate and separate individual rare earths.
Step 6d> Removal of other impurities from silicates to produce a high quality pure silicon for solar cell manufacture and glass manufacture.
Step 7a> Process slag and impurities from silicates processing to remove carbon and other useful elements.
Step 7b> Collect gases such as oxygen from the smelting and purification processes and liquefy if possible to reduce storage volume.
Step 8> Form remaining material into bricks for use as radiation shielding.

As material processing in orbit becomes more sophisticated, hardware and the steps that hardware performs are added to the processing plant. Initial processing only requires the first 3 steps. The last step of forming bricks for use as radiation shielding can be performed as the 4th step initially. As more processing equipment starts operation the brick forming step would stay always the last step. Previously formed bricks can be re-processed when new processors come online and are replaced with new bricks. Some steps may be skipped in the re-processing of bricks such as the water removal step although the bricks would have to be crushed before other additional processing can be done

[Wyvern]

Planetary Resources has just started a kickstarter in an attempt to both move the project forward and give people a chance to get involved.

http://www.planetaryresources.com/2012/06/back-us-on-kickstarter/

Short Quote:
"With continuing NASA budget cuts, it seems like the development of the space frontier is more and more in the hands of everyday citizens.

Our first major milestone at Planetary Resources is to build and launch our first asteroid-finding Space Telescope (the Arkyd-100) and do that FAST!

To offer you a chance to actually get involved, we’ve been tossing around the idea of adding additional capacity in our production run, and either offering you access to a portion of our of our orbiting spacecraft – or – if there’s enough demand, actually build you an additional Space Telescope for your own use.

We’d probably do this thru a Kickstarter campaign, but we ONLY if there’s enough interest…" 

Just remembered I have the PRI newsletter and they have some additional information there.  I'll link some of it.

"We’ve had hundreds of emails asking
us about our ability to point our
cameras the Moon, planets and even at
specific spots on the Earth.
 
We’ve also had literally hundreds of folks
asking about the resolution and whether
we’d be willing to sell access to our
satellites imagery…
 
…whether you could etch your name
on the satellites, buy a full-scale replica, etc…
 
Soooo… Here’s the answers:
 
Yes, we can point at any celestial object… (well,
except the Sun)…
 
…and if pointed at the Earth you can get photos
with 1-2 meter resolution.
 
Your questions totally got us thinking!….
 
Maybe there’s a near-term way to get YOU
involved!
 
Our near-term goal is to build and launch
an incredibly powerful, super-cutting-edge,
20 kilogram *Space Telescope* and do it FAST.
 
Our medium-term goal is to build and launch
a constellation of 10 - 15 of these Arkyd
Series-100 spacecraft in the next 3 years."

Some more stuff about whether you want to do this or not it's up to you.

"Would you be interested in being able
to decide where to point the cameras?
 
Use it to explore space, or image the Earth?"

"We’re happy to build extra spacecraft capacity
That we can offer to you as co-conspirators
to do with as you wish…
 
…Take photos of your backyard, the superbowl,
your school, Saturn, the Moon or deep space."

That's about it