Planetary Resources

[Robotbeat]

Everyone is forgetting that what Planetary Resources will extract is platinum ore, and not platinum itself.

If they do that, it will probably not be worth it.

PR really doesn't have a choice about that. You see, asteroids contain PGMs in quantities of maybe 100 parts per million locked in rocks called "ore". So, ore is what PR will have available. How that ore is transported back to Earth is a mystery to me.

So, just like PR plans to sell water in space for use in space, perhaps PR plans to sell ore in space for use in space.

They've talked about beneficiating the ore before bringing it back,  so what you just said is not a given.

[IRobot]

Either they come up with a simple refining method or this whole thing is vaporware. Platinum is extracted as a sub product of copper refining, in a process called "electrorefining". The good thing about this process is that it seems to be doable on a small scale. Platinum is non magnetic and has high density, so it is easy to separate from other byproducts of electrorefining.

My only question is: how much consumables do you need for electrorefining?

[Robotbeat]

Either they come up with a simple refining method or this whole thing is vaporware. Platinum is extracted as a sub product of copper refining, in a process called "electrorefining". ...

That's not the only source of platinum, or even necessarily the best.

[rushdrums]

Platinum ore is worth in the low 1000s of dollars per ton.

It would seem to me that shipping ore around in space makes about as much sense as doing so here on Earth (and yes, it does happen a bit, but mostly not). You're paying good money (delta V = money) to move useless dirt (which is what most of the ore is) from point A to point B. Depending on the size of the processing device, probably better to move it to the ore, and only bring back the product.

Noel

Hypothetically: What if there was a large floating island on Earth out in the ocean that had great mineral resources but was 10,000 miles from any major continent? Would it be better to ship the entire infrastructure to process the ore on the island along with a power source and fuel to run the operation? Or, would it be less costly if you could push the whole island 10,000 miles using a big tug and process it along the shore or on the closest continent?

I don't know which.

Just trying to think of a good analogy...

-Rush
...

[Alexsander]

What we're addressing here is the price of a gallon of clean water in LEO. With the shuttle, at $1.5B per launch to a max of 25 metric tons, and 8.34 pounds in a gallon, that was about $227,000/gallon from Earth. With Atlas-V 551/552 or Falcon-9 at about $2400-2500/pound, that's about $20,000/gallon from Earth. Projected with Falcon-Heavy at $800-1000/pound,  it's about $7500/gallon from Earth.
Water from the moon, Mars, NEO's, or Saturn should be under about $7500/gallon "turnkey" delivered to LEO to be competitive, once Falcon-Heavy enters service the next year or so.

Source: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6163

They will NOT bring anything back to Earth. Right now there's a market for water under $20,000/gallon, but that same water would be almost worthless down on Earth.

As for other metals, let's consider: IF (and it's a big if) some refining technique for zero-g is developed, it would be far cheaper to buy any ore from Planetary Resources and refine it in some "refinery space-station" than pull it up to LEO in a rocket.

[go4mars]

if there was a large floating island on Earth out in the ocean that had great mineral resources but was 10,000 miles from any major continent? Would it be better to ship the entire infrastructure to process the ore on the island along with a power source and fuel to run the operation?

It depends on ore concentration and transportation costs of either scenario.  For example, Nautilus Minerals is planning to bring it to the shore from the bottom of the ocean for processing, but it's very high grade ore (not much chaff).   Almost all terra firma metals refining is done significantly on site (or relatively nearby).  Tailings back-fill is usually part of the reason for that. 

In the PR context, the answer is "we don't know". 

This answer might reasonably be refined to "it is asteroid specific".

[jnc]

[Jim]
That is not a given
[/Jim]

Love that 'Jim' mode...

Noel

[Danderman]

Platinum ore is worth in the low 1000s of dollars per ton.

It would seem to me that shipping ore around in space makes about as much sense as doing so here on Earth (and yes, it does happen a bit, but mostly not). You're paying good money (delta V = money) to move useless dirt (which is what most of the ore is) from point A to point B. Depending on the size of the processing device, probably better to move it to the ore, and only bring back the product.

Noel

Hypothetically: What if there was a large floating island on Earth out in the ocean that had great mineral resources but was 10,000 miles from any major continent? Would it be better to ship the entire infrastructure to process the ore on the island along with a power source and fuel to run the operation? Or, would it be less costly if you could push the whole island 10,000 miles using a big tug and process it along the shore or on the closest continent?

...

Terrestrial shipping is really, really cheap. For example, most manganese ore from Brazil is shipped out with little processing, to places like China. There are few facilities in Brazil to refine manganese into ferromanganese, since shipping is so cheap.

There are special SuperMax ships that suck up ore into their holds, whereas ferromanganese  is often shipped on bags and pallets.

[Danderman]

As for other metals, let's consider: IF (and it's a big if) some refining technique for zero-g is developed, it would be far cheaper to buy any ore from Planetary Resources and refine it in some "refinery space-station" than pull it up to LEO in a rocket.

Invoking magic in a business plan does not necessarily lead to success.

Planetary Resources seems to be expecting large government purchases of their volatiles and magic refining systems for PGMs.

I would imagine that they could be beaten in the volatiles market by SpaceX if that market were real.

[Solman]

As for other metals, let's consider: IF (and it's a big if) some refining technique for zero-g is developed, it would be far cheaper to buy any ore from Planetary Resources and refine it in some "refinery space-station" than pull it up to LEO in a rocket.

Invoking magic in a business plan does not necessarily lead to success.

Planetary Resources seems to be expecting large government purchases of their volatiles and magic refining systems for PGMs.

I would imagine that they could be beaten in the volatiles market by SpaceX if that market were real.

 Vacuum pyrolysis seems simple and straightforward - parabolic mirror making concentrated sunlight, solar furnace and condenser. At least it can bake volatiles out before shipment if desired. May have design/development issues but certainly isn't magic.
Is there something I'm missing?

[A_M_Swallow]

As for other metals, let's consider: IF (and it's a big if) some refining technique for zero-g is developed, it would be far cheaper to buy any ore from Planetary Resources and refine it in some "refinery space-station" than pull it up to LEO in a rocket.

Invoking magic in a business plan does not necessarily lead to success.

Planetary Resources seems to be expecting large government purchases of their volatiles and magic refining systems for PGMs.

I would imagine that they could be beaten in the volatiles market by SpaceX if that market were real.

 Vacuum pyrolysis seems simple and straightforward - parabolic mirror making concentrated sunlight, solar furnace and condenser. At least it can bake volatiles out before shipment if desired. May have design/development issues but certainly isn't magic.
Is there something I'm missing?

A test using a nanosat to act as a product demonstration.  Spend 2 - 3 million dollars testing the idea before spending 2 - 3 billion dollars.

[Danderman]

 Vacuum pyrolysis seems simple and straightforward - parabolic mirror making concentrated sunlight, solar furnace and condenser. At least it can bake volatiles out before shipment if desired. May have design/development issues but certainly isn't magic.
Is there something I'm missing?

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra

[Wyvern]

 Vacuum pyrolysis seems simple and straightforward - parabolic mirror making concentrated sunlight, solar furnace and condenser. At least it can bake volatiles out before shipment if desired. May have design/development issues but certainly isn't magic.
Is there something I'm missing?

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra

According to http://gsfctechnology.gsfc.nasa.gov/TechSheets/Vacuum_Goddard_final.pdf Vacuum Pyrolysis has already been used in laboratory settings so to say that vacuum pyrolysis is just a theory seems a little pessimistic.

Although I will agree that their are significant between laboratory and "real" settings it seems to me that vacuum pyrolysis is at least somewhat understood and capable of being tested in orbit.  I say we follow A_M_Swallow's suggestion and test vacuum pyrolysis in orbit on a nanosat.

If there are any people who have experience in vacuum pyrolysis and/or other manufacturing techniques please feel free to correct me.

[Warren Platts]

if there was a large floating island on Earth out in the ocean that had great mineral resources but was 10,000 miles from any major continent? Would it be better to ship the entire infrastructure to process the ore on the island along with a power source and fuel to run the operation?

It depends on ore concentration and transportation costs of either scenario.  For example, Nautilus Minerals is planning to bring it to the shore from the bottom of the ocean for processing, but it's very high grade ore (not much chaff).   Almost all terra firma metals refining is done significantly on site (or relatively nearby).  Tailings back-fill is usually part of the reason for that. 

In the PR context, the answer is "we don't know". 

This answer might reasonably be refined to "it is asteroid specific".

In the PRI context, the answer is "we know", because (a) they said so; and (b) if you crunch the numbers, the inescapable conclusion is that they must refine any PGM's on site in order to be worth it: to get billion dollar amounts of PGM's requires asteroids that are too big to be practical for retrieving back to Earth orbit.

[Danderman]

 Vacuum pyrolysis seems simple and straightforward - parabolic mirror making concentrated sunlight, solar furnace and condenser. At least it can bake volatiles out before shipment if desired. May have design/development issues but certainly isn't magic.
Is there something I'm missing?

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra

According to http://gsfctechnology.gsfc.nasa.gov/TechSheets/Vacuum_Goddard_final.pdf Vacuum Pyrolysis has already been used in laboratory settings so to say that vacuum pyrolysis is just a theory seems a little pessimistic.

Although I will agree that their are significant between laboratory and "real" settings it seems to me that vacuum pyrolysis is at least somewhat understood and capable of being tested in orbit.  I say we follow A_M_Swallow's suggestion and test vacuum pyrolysis in orbit on a nanosat.

If there are any people who have experience in vacuum pyrolysis and/or other manufacturing techniques please feel free to correct me.

This could be a wonderful technique for releasing gaseous oxygen from rock. I wonder what the application is for separating platinum from nickel, iron, and various minerals found in asteroids?

More to the point, invoking use of a technology at a very low TRL level for a commercial space project is a good way for a large fortune to be converted to a small fortune.

[Danderman]

In the PRI context, the answer is "we know", because (a) they said so; and (b) if you crunch the numbers, the inescapable conclusion is that they must refine any PGM's on site in order to be worth it: to get billion dollar amounts of PGM's requires asteroids that are too big to be practical for retrieving back to Earth orbit.

What we know about PR is that they plan to move asteroids closer to the Earth.

[Alexsander]

This could be a wonderful technique for releasing gaseous oxygen from rock. I wonder what the application is for separating platinum from nickel, iron, and various minerals found in asteroids?

More to the point, invoking use of a technology at a very low TRL level for a commercial space project is a good way for a large fortune to be converted to a small fortune.

There's a lot of research on "space metallurgy":
https://www.google.com/search?q=space+metallurgy

[JohnFornaro]

Invoking magic in a business plan does not necessarily lead to success.

Soooo.... Magic works sometimes?  Excellent!

There are few facilities in Brazil to refine manganese into ferromanganese, since shipping is so cheap.

I thought it was mainly because China functionally lacks environment and labour laws...

Luckily, so do asteroids at the moment.

What?  There's no protection for the asteroids themselves?  That's outrageous!

Save our asteroids!

[Alexsander]

In the PRI context, the answer is "we know", because (a) they said so; and (b) if you crunch the numbers, the inescapable conclusion is that they must refine any PGM's on site in order to be worth it: to get billion dollar amounts of PGM's requires asteroids that are too big to be practical for retrieving back to Earth orbit.

Why focus only on PGMs? Even iron ore would do: remember it's already on space, that's a huge cost saving for potential buyers. Anything they mine would compete against $20,000/kg (from Earth to LEO). An orbiting steel mill could provide material for space stations, for example.

[jnc]

What we know about PR is that they plan to move asteroids closer to the Earth.

Do they give any details on their planned source of delta-v (both method, and propellant source)?

Noel