SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION

[sanman]

Is there a chance at any point after splashdown that the dragon will be on display by the public before being sent to Hawthorn? I live nearby and wanted to catch a glimpse if possible.

Hmm, the original SpaceShipOne is now on display at the Smithsonian museum, isn't it? I wonder if there's any consideration for having this Dragon similarly preserved for posterity, as a recognition of this historic moment.

[Kaputnik]

Hmm, the original SpaceShipOne is now on display at the Smithsonian museum, isn't it? I wonder if there's any consideration for having this Dragon similarly preserved for posterity, as a recognition of this historic moment.

Probably a bit unnecessary since the C1 Dragon is supposed to be going there I believe.

[Dave G]

The trunk is aluminium now. It was going to be composite, F9 flights 1 & 2 trunks (if you can call it that, more like a spacecraft adaptor) were. The actual trunk is constructed in a similar manner as Falcon 9's first and second stage fuel tanks. The solar array covers or pontoons are still composite, however.

Thanks!

[manboy]

Hmm, the original SpaceShipOne is now on display at the Smithsonian museum, isn't it? I wonder if there's any consideration for having this Dragon similarly preserved for posterity, as a recognition of this historic moment.

Probably a bit unnecessary since the C1 Dragon is supposed to be going there I believe.

I know Elon once mentioned it in response to a question but it didn't seem like there weren't any firm plans in place.

[baldusi]

Among other issues, the donation to the Smithsonian is tax deductible. I guess they'll wait until they actually have to pay significant income taxes before donating it.

[docmordrid]

Shouldn't that be international waters, that far off shore?

The territorial waters can only be 12 nautical miles (22 km), but a country can also claim an exclusive economic zone of 200 nautical miles (370.4 km).

[Zed_Noir]

Will there be live video for the splashdown? It would interesting if someone can staged a traffic-cam helicopter that far offshore.

[Lobo]

Shouldn't that be international waters, that far off shore?

The territorial waters can only be 12 nautical miles (22 km), but a country can also claim an exclusive economic zone of 200 nautical miles (370.4 km).

This is an odd questions, but once Dragon has splashed down unmanned in international waters, what's meritime salvage law?  Could someone else beat SpaceX to it and claim it as salvage?  They'd probably be bringing a lot of problems down on their head if someone did that, but -could- someone do that, just to tweak the nose of the US or something?

[Jason1701]

Will there be live video for the splashdown? It would interesting if someone can staged a traffic-cam helicopter that far offshore.

Definitely no private helicopters, and I doubt that live video will be their priority. We can expect tweets, and then pictures soon after splashdown.

[Lars_J]

You can plot NOTAM coordinates on www.notamdecoder.com - Just input:

2445N/12000W 2518N/12048W 2719N/12250W 2911N/12439W 3025N/12546W 3105N/12619W 3140N/12601W 3155N/12518W 3128N/12428W 3028N/12300W 2843N/12053W 2740N/12000W

and you'll get a nice map showing you where Dragon should land!

Interesting... That shape implies that the re-entry will occur on a 'southbound' pass, not a 'northbound' one as was done during C1. This means that the IR observation assets in Hawaii may not get a good view of the re-entry this time.

[Jorge]

Shouldn't that be international waters, that far off shore?

The territorial waters can only be 12 nautical miles (22 km), but a country can also claim an exclusive economic zone of 200 nautical miles (370.4 km).

This is an odd questions, but once Dragon has splashed down unmanned in international waters, what's meritime salvage law?  Could someone else beat SpaceX to it and claim it as salvage?  They'd probably be bringing a lot of problems down on their head if someone did that, but -could- someone do that, just to tweak the nose of the US or something?

No. See the Outer Space Treaty. Specifically Article VIII.

[docmordrid]

Shouldn't that be international waters, that far off shore?

The territorial waters can only be 12 nautical miles (22 km), but a country can also claim an exclusive economic zone of 200 nautical miles (370.4 km).

This is an odd questions, but once Dragon has splashed down unmanned in international waters, what's meritime salvage law? 

IIRC under Admiralty law there are 2 kinds of salvage; contract (you hire them) and pure or merit, which is what you're talking about. In principal they'd be able to claim abandoned equipment, assuming they didn't get the Coast Guard called down on them, but to keep it they'd have to go to a court at the harbor they took it to so as to establish salvage rights. You can bet SpaceX would have an army of suits there.

[Zed_Noir]

Will there be live video for the splashdown? It would interesting if someone can staged a traffic-cam helicopter that far offshore.

Definitely no private helicopters, and I doubt that live video will be their priority. We can expect tweets, and then pictures soon after splashdown.

After some thought, maybe a leased traffic cam helicopter (e.g. Robinson R22) operated for SpaceX based from a barge/ship.

Having splashdown and recovery videos available for the media should be good PR. Especially if it's available on You-tube or similar platforms.

[spaceboy89]

Slight mix up by NASA here......this looks very much like an ATV to me! 


http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_2258.html

"A Dragon Approaches
This image of SpaceX's Dragon spacecraft as it approached the space station was taken NASA astronaut Don Pettit. The SpaceX Falcon 9 and its Dragon spacecraft launched on Tuesday, May 22, at 3:44 a.m. EDT.

This mission is a demonstration flight by Space Exploration Technologies, or SpaceX, as part of its contract with NASA to have private companies launch cargo safely to the International Space Station."

[robertross]

Slight mix up by NASA here......this looks very much like an ATV to me! 


http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_2258.html

"A Dragon Approaches
This image of SpaceX's Dragon spacecraft as it approached the space station was taken NASA astronaut Don Pettit. The SpaceX Falcon 9 and its Dragon spacecraft launched on Tuesday, May 22, at 3:44 a.m. EDT.

This mission is a demonstration flight by Space Exploration Technologies, or SpaceX, as part of its contract with NASA to have private companies launch cargo safely to the International Space Station."

Good catch. I sent them a correction notice

[Space Pete]

Slight mix up by NASA here......this looks very much like an ATV to me! 


http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_2258.html

"A Dragon Approaches
This image of SpaceX's Dragon spacecraft as it approached the space station was taken NASA astronaut Don Pettit. The SpaceX Falcon 9 and its Dragon spacecraft launched on Tuesday, May 22, at 3:44 a.m. EDT.

This mission is a demonstration flight by Space Exploration Technologies, or SpaceX, as part of its contract with NASA to have private companies launch cargo safely to the International Space Station."

How on Earth (or off of it!) could they get THAT mixed up with Dragon? Looks noting at all like it.

[Rocket Science]

Thats just sad...

[Lobo]

Shouldn't that be international waters, that far off shore?

The territorial waters can only be 12 nautical miles (22 km), but a country can also claim an exclusive economic zone of 200 nautical miles (370.4 km).

This is an odd questions, but once Dragon has splashed down unmanned in international waters, what's meritime salvage law? 

IIRC under Admiralty law there are 2 kinds of salvage; contract (you hire them) and pure or merit, which is what you're talking about. In principal they'd be able to claim abandoned equipment, assuming they didn't get the Coast Guard called down on them, but to keep it they'd have to go to a court at the harbor they took it to so as to establish salvage rights. You can bet SpaceX would have an army of suits there.

Thanks for the info.

Yea, like I said, whoever tried such a stunt would probably be far more problems for themselves than anything they’d get out of it.  But you know, in this day and age, there are a lot of knuckleheads out there doing crazy and stupid things.  If some nutter or country was trying to stir up some trouble in general, you never know….

I mainly thought of that, because this will be the first non-US government capsule to be splashing down regularly ever.  And the last US government capsule that splashed down was Apollo-Soyuz I think, and anyone trying to go after that would have had piracy and kidnapping problems with the crew, as well as the full fury of the US government and Naval assets.  Not even the Soviets probably wanted to get into such an incident.

But this Dragon and the next several would be unmanned, so it’s property only, not people.  And it’s the property of a private company, not the US government.  So –probably- you aren’t going to get a Carrier Battle Group on your back for swiping it.  Unless there’s a Coast Guard unit in the area (which there might be), I doubt the SpaceX recovery team would be armed, so an armed “pirate” vessel could probably get on site and force SpaceX to stand down while they swiped it.  And probably get it and get away before a Coast Guard unit could get there to help if there wasn’t one already close by.  SpaceX I think is out on a big, slow working barge, so not like they could give chase.

Yea, such a scenario is unlikely in the extreme.  Mainly this is just an intellectual exercise because of all the “firsts” unscrewed Dragon is.  First commercial capsule.  First non-government spacecraft to be recovered in an international area. First spacecraft of ANY kind to be recovered outside a country’s land boarders since Apollo-Soyuz.  Soyuz is always in the Russian Steppes, and the Shuttle was on a runway in the US borders.  ATV and HTV aren’t recovered.  Dreamchaser would be like the Shuttle.  Orion will be a government capsule and other than ETF-1 and STS-1, probably always be manned. 
Dragon is really the only non-government, non-crewed spacecraft recovered outside a country’s territorial boundries. 
CST-100 or Liberty might have these issues too, but they won’t be flying for some time, and they’ll probably have crews on them most of the time if they are (unless commercial cargo contracts are given to them too in the future?).

I’m sure SpaceX would like to get the propulsive landing down, for many reasons, but that might be one of them too?  Because then it’s landing within US boarders.  Likely not a big concern in reality, but I’m sure they certainly don’t mind not having to worry about it, and being able to land in their own “back yard”.

[Jorge]

Shouldn't that be international waters, that far off shore?

The territorial waters can only be 12 nautical miles (22 km), but a country can also claim an exclusive economic zone of 200 nautical miles (370.4 km).

This is an odd questions, but once Dragon has splashed down unmanned in international waters, what's meritime salvage law? 

IIRC under Admiralty law there are 2 kinds of salvage; contract (you hire them) and pure or merit, which is what you're talking about. In principal they'd be able to claim abandoned equipment, assuming they didn't get the Coast Guard called down on them, but to keep it they'd have to go to a court at the harbor they took it to so as to establish salvage rights. You can bet SpaceX would have an army of suits there.

Thanks for the info.

Yea, like I said, whoever tried such a stunt would probably be far more problems for themselves than anything they’d get out of it.  But you know, in this day and age, there are a lot of knuckleheads out there doing crazy and stupid things.  If some nutter or country was trying to stir up some trouble in general, you never know….

I mainly thought of that, because this will be the first non-US government capsule to be splashing down regularly ever.  And the last US government capsule that splashed down was Apollo-Soyuz I think, and anyone trying to go after that would have had piracy and kidnapping problems with the crew, as well as the full fury of the US government and Naval assets.  Not even the Soviets probably wanted to get into such an incident.

But this Dragon and the next several would be unmanned, so it’s property only, not people.  And it’s the property of a private company, not the US government.  So –probably- you aren’t going to get a Carrier Battle Group on your back for swiping it.  Unless there’s a Coast Guard unit in the area (which there might be), I doubt the SpaceX recovery team would be armed, so an armed “pirate” vessel could probably get on site and force SpaceX to stand down while they swiped it.  And probably get it and get away before a Coast Guard unit could get there to help if there wasn’t one already close by.  SpaceX I think is out on a big, slow working barge, so not like they could give chase.

Yea, such a scenario is unlikely in the extreme.  Mainly this is just an intellectual exercise because of all the “firsts” unscrewed Dragon is.  First commercial capsule.  First non-government spacecraft to be recovered in an international area. First spacecraft of ANY kind to be recovered outside a country’s land boarders since Apollo-Soyuz.  Soyuz is always in the Russian Steppes, and the Shuttle was on a runway in the US borders.  ATV and HTV aren’t recovered.  Dreamchaser would be like the Shuttle.  Orion will be a government capsule and other than ETF-1 and STS-1, probably always be manned. 
Dragon is really the only non-government, non-crewed spacecraft recovered outside a country’s territorial boundries.

Irrelevant. Read the Outer Space Treaty, Article VIII:

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/oosa/en/SpaceLaw/gares/html/gares_21_2222.html

A State Party to the Treaty on whose registry an object launched into outer space is carried shall retain jurisdiction and control over such object, and over any personnel thereof, while in outer space or on a celestial body. Ownership of objects launched into outer space, including objects landed or constructed on a celestial body, and of their component parts, is not affected by their presence in outer space or on a celestial body or by their return to the Earth. Such objects or component parts found beyond the limits of the State Party to the Treaty on whose registry they are carried shall be returned to that State Party, which shall, upon request, furnish identifying data prior to their return.

Dragon was launched on the US registry. It is not subject to salvage when it returns to Earth, period. Anybody else who recovers it must hand it over to the State Party (the US government). End of story here, folks. Admiralty salvage does *not*, repeat, *not* apply here.

[mmeijeri]

What about countries that haven't signed or ratified the treaty? According to the WP page on the OST there are quite a few countries like that. If a ship registered in such a country recovered a spacecraft on the high seas, wouldn't it be subject to existing maritime law?