SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION

[360-180]

So now the ISS has an extra lifeboat? Perhaps it would also need an Oxygen generator and CO2 scrubber, but in a pinch is there anything stopping this?

PCBM unberthing mode

[sanman]

Likewise, I just asked that in the party thread.

It seems that the rest of the station is being exposed to the air from the capsule. So why do the cargo handling crew particularly need the masks?

Residual fumes from something? Is it just mainly because it's the first flight, and they have to take such precautions due to that?

[Prober]

The reality is that Dragon flew 1.5 times and had quite a set of issues, but even if there would be no issues, I still wouldn't call it "flight-worthy" until in flies at least 10 times without a hitch.

2) Yes, for any given spacecraft, after all test flights are complete, there should be some number of normal flights to insure reliability before flying humans.  However, I believe 10 is excessive.  I would say 3-5.

Many @ NASA Remember the Challenger 4 flight experience/rule?

[Thunderbird5]

Likewise, I just asked that in the party thread.

It seems that the rest of the station is being exposed to the air from the capsule. So why do the cargo handling crew particularly need the masks?

Residual fumes from something? Is it just mainly because it's the first flight, and they have to take such precautions due to that?

There are definitely more knowledgeable people than myself who could provide a more complete answer but remember that unlike on Earth, all debris floats regardless of its density. So 'dust' can include just about anything, including things such as microscopic particles of metal and other swarf.

[RDoc]

Likewise, I just asked that in the party thread.

It seems that the rest of the station is being exposed to the air from the capsule. So why do the cargo handling crew particularly need the masks?

Residual fumes from something? Is it just mainly because it's the first flight, and they have to take such precautions due to that?

There are definitely more knowledgeable people than myself who could provide a more complete answer but remember that unlike on Earth, all debris floats regardless of its density. So 'dust' can include just about anything, including things such as microscopic particles of metal and other swarf.

I can see there's a hazard, since who knows what broke or abraded during the launch process, but once the hatch is open, any such material is free to float into the ISS itself.

Wouldn't it be safer to just have a  filter/fan system to recirculate the air in the capsule for a few hours while they wait to open the hatch?

[Kabloona]

Residual fumes from something? Is it just mainly because it's the first flight, and they have to take such precautions due to that?

Dragon carries toxic propellants. Leaks = toxic fumes.

[Rex Chan]

Likewise, I just asked that in the party thread.

It seems that the rest of the station is being exposed to the air from the capsule. So why do the cargo handling crew particularly need the masks?

Residual fumes from something? Is it just mainly because it's the first flight, and they have to take such precautions due to that?

Maybe the other guys ARE wearing masks too? And since the ISS is a sealed environment, the only air movement will be from fans, so air *may* be quite still in Dragon. I think they have to get ventilation in Dragon via the big orange tubes...

[manboy]

How will the manned Dragon dock with ISS? The same way that Shuttle, Progress and ATV did?

If I remember correctly, it will, using iLIDS/NDS (assuming an adapter gets launched at some point).

I'm still a little surprised/bemused that a docking system with a 127cm passageway (matching CBM) hasn't been developed, but there we go.

I think part of the problem is that a lot of spacecraft aren't large enough to accommodate a docking mechanism of that size (Ex: CST-100).

If I remember correctly, it will, using iLIDS/NDS (assuming an adapter gets launched at some point).

I'm still a little surprised/bemused that a docking system with a 127mm passageway (matching CBM) hasn't been developed, but there we go.

I believe it is to be launched on an HTV as "external" cargo. I assume you meant 127 cm.

Last I heard (from erioladastra) the first one is scheduled for late 2014, the second one in 2015 and will be delivered by Dragon.

Sometimes you have to pay to correct your mistakes.  Particularly ones the general public can spot.

There is already a correction, it's called iLIDS.

Can't fit an ISPR. iLIDS is just a tarted-up NIH version of APAS. Frankly it doesn't fix anything other than NASA using a Russian standard.

False. iLIDS allows for low impact docking.

Likewise, I just asked that in the party thread.

It seems that the rest of the station is being exposed to the air from the capsule. So why do the cargo handling crew particularly need the masks?

Residual fumes from something? Is it just mainly because it's the first flight, and they have to take such precautions due to that?

There are definitely more knowledgeable people than myself who could provide a more complete answer but remember that unlike on Earth, all debris floats regardless of its density. So 'dust' can include just about anything, including things such as microscopic particles of metal and other swarf.

I can see there's a hazard, since who knows what broke or abraded during the launch process, but once the hatch is open, any such material is free to float into the ISS itself.

Wouldn't it be safer to just have a  filter/fan system to recirculate the air in the capsule for a few hours while they wait to open the hatch?

The vent system has to be connected by the crew inside Dragon (you can see in the post hatch opening video).

[RDoc]

I can see there's a hazard, since who knows what broke or abraded during the launch process, but once the hatch is open, any such material is free to float into the ISS itself.

Wouldn't it be safer to just have a  filter/fan system to recirculate the air in the capsule for a few hours while they wait to open the hatch?

The vent system has to be connected by the crew inside Dragon (you can see in the post hatch opening video).

Sure, but the basic question remains. If the issue is particulates, once the hatch is open and people start moving around inside, I'd think they'd get distributed into the ISS. If the problem is toxic gases, I suppose dilution is a possible solution, but that seems a bit problematic.

Using a recirculating microfilter/carbon adsorber system that was located in the capsule and ran before opening the hatch seems a bit safer.

[Bubbinski]

Speaking of lifeboats, has there been any thought to finishing up a crew capable version (life support, seats, etc.) and launching it unmanned to ISS, docking it to a PMA, and testing out the systems/life support for 180 days or so, then landing it?  And could this be used as a "lifeboat only" before the "full monty" crewed vehicle with the LAS system is ready?

[manboy]

Speaking of lifeboats, has there been any thought to finishing up a crew capable version (life support, seats, etc.) and launching it unmanned to ISS, docking it to a PMA, and testing out the systems/life support for 180 days or so, then landing it?  And could this be used as a "lifeboat only" before the "full monty" crewed vehicle with the LAS system is ready?

Kind of an interesting idea. In could be launched in 2014 (when the NDS adapter plans to be attached to the station). You could probably even fill the free space of the capsule and trunk with cargo.

[Chris Bergin]

I like the idea of this too. When things calm down, I'll see if I can get an interview with a SpaceX person via the official route and will "report back"!

[Ben the Space Brit]

Speaking of lifeboats, has there been any thought to finishing up a crew capable version (life support, seats, etc.) and launching it unmanned to ISS, docking it to a PMA, and testing out the systems/life support for 180 days or so, then landing it?  And could this be used as a "lifeboat only" before the "full monty" crewed vehicle with the LAS system is ready?

FWIW, I think that this was the essence of the 'block-0' Orion idea that President Obama came up with a ways back, launched on Delta-IVH.  That alone should tell you thta such a project would be a political minefield to get given to SpaceX.

[erioladastra]

I can see there's a hazard, since who knows what broke or abraded during the launch process, but once the hatch is open, any such material is free to float into the ISS itself.

Wouldn't it be safer to just have a  filter/fan system to recirculate the air in the capsule for a few hours while they wait to open the hatch?

The vent system has to be connected by the crew inside Dragon (you can see in the post hatch opening video).

Sure, but the basic question remains. If the issue is particulates, once the hatch is open and people start moving around inside, I'd think they'd get distributed into the ISS. If the problem is toxic gases, I suppose dilution is a possible solution, but that seems a bit problematic.

Using a recirculating microfilter/carbon adsorber system that was located in the capsule and ran before opening the hatch seems a bit safer.

it is standard ops for a new module or vehicle to use masks for FOD until the system has had a chance to clean it out.  yes, you do have a small amount of exposure to the ISS but due to volume it is much more unlikely.  Early on crews had gotten things in their eyes for example.  Normally we try to run the vent systems internally, when present for an hour or two before ingress.

[erioladastra]

Speaking of lifeboats, has there been any thought to finishing up a crew capable version (life support, seats, etc.) and launching it unmanned to ISS, docking it to a PMA, and testing out the systems/life support for 180 days or so, then landing it?  And could this be used as a "lifeboat only" before the "full monty" crewed vehicle with the LAS system is ready?

Yes.  but you still have to meet the man rating so you are essentially at the commercial crew vehicle.  And to get that ready and certified in a reasonable time, your going to take up crew as well.  Now, in iCAP companies may propose to go to ISS.  Might be uncrewed, might be for some duration or just a quick, yep it works.  Either way crews need to come home on the vehicle they go up on.  Therefore having an extra lifeboat doesn't get you much.

[Thunderbird5]

Yes.  but you still have to meet the man rating so you are essentially at the commercial crew vehicle. 

True, but at least you wouldn't require a man-rated LV so that could have some schedule advantages over the full stack. Possibly not enough though, I agree.

[Norm38]

Don notes they've had all six people inside Dragon. Not enough room for a barn dance, but plenty of room for the crews. Haven't taken any pictures yet.

The unloading is scheduled for Monday.

That's six people inside, with all the cargo still loaded, correct?  Shows how much more cargo it can carry.  So will the CRS-1 flight be packed full to the hatch?

Once the cargo is unloaded, I wonder if they'll all go back in, to get a feel for how the crew version will be?  Would make sense for SpaceX to get as much early zero-g feedback as they can get before finalizing things.

But the first crewed launch would be 3, not 7 correct?  That'll be a lot less crowded than a Soyuz.

[manboy]

Don notes they've had all six people inside Dragon. Not enough room for a barn dance, but plenty of room for the crews. Haven't taken any pictures yet.

The unloading is scheduled for Monday.

That's six people inside, with all the cargo still loaded, correct?  Shows how much more cargo it can carry.  So will the CRS-1 flight be packed full to the hatch?

Once the cargo is unloaded, I wonder if they'll all go back in, to get a feel for how the crew version will be?  Would make sense for SpaceX to get as much early zero-g feedback as they can get before finalizing things.

But the first crewed launch would be 3, not 7 correct?  That'll be a lot less crowded than a Soyuz.

The extra space would probably be filled with cargo (or tourists if NASA allows it). No idea on how many people will be on the first crew launch but NASA wants to fly crews of four.

[Moe Grills]

How will the manned Dragon dock with ISS? The same way that Shuttle, Progress and ATV did?

  ANSWER: This Dragon rendezvous and robot-arm capture technique that you witnessed in the past couple of days.
A crewed Dragon would do the same thing, wouldn't you think?   

[SpacexULA]

  ANSWER: This Dragon rendezvous and robot-arm capture technique that you witnessed in the past couple of days.
A crewed Dragon would do the same thing, wouldn't you think?   

per SpaceX and NASA docking not berthing.