Author Topic: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION  (Read 510280 times)

Offline Lars_J

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1120 on: 07/17/2012 04:45 pm »
SpaceX just posted their C2+ mission summary video:



A bunch of new (to me anyway) footage mixed in there.
« Last Edit: 07/17/2012 04:49 pm by Lars_J »

Offline Lars_J

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1121 on: 07/17/2012 05:02 pm »
A cool shot: (sorry for the poor quality)
« Last Edit: 07/17/2012 05:07 pm by Lars_J »

Offline starsilk

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1122 on: 07/18/2012 10:12 pm »
another NDA period expires... this is like archeology; layers of deals as they dealt with new problems:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/spacex-utilizes-tiger-tight-corps-friction-washer-technology-for-its-first-mission-to-the-international-space-station-2012-07-18

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The Tiger-Tight technology operates on a micro-topographic scale. Industrial diamonds embedded in an electro-less nickel matrix penetrate and interlock with the mating surfaces to create an extremely high retaining force and prevent loosening under vibration and shock

Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1123 on: 07/19/2012 04:08 pm »
Future configurations of the Falcon 9 are Off-Topic for the COTS-2+ mission thread, people.  All of this back and forth is based on an image capture from the launch, which was both On-Topic and cool. There is a Falcon 9 V1.1 thread for this discussion, with many of these questions answered.
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline Chris Bergin

Future configurations of the Falcon 9 are Off-Topic for the COTS-2+ mission thread, people.  All of this back and forth is based on an image capture from the launch, which was both On-Topic and cool. There is a Falcon 9 V1.1 thread for this discussion, with many of these questions answered.

Bonus points go to Comga for attempting to stop people from posting about the V1.1 on the wrong thread (this is the wrong thread for this).

Thread trimmed, as will any other posts that are not specific to C2+
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Offline ugordan

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1125 on: 08/28/2012 05:50 pm »
The location of the retroreflectors on the JEM were known years in advance.
There was evidence of their effect on DragonEye years in advance, too.
DragonEye does not "scan".  It is has a 2D detector array. 
Any change in the FOV (or FOR) would be electronic, not physical as one could do with a scanner.

Don't shoot the messenger.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/news/coming-in-october-spacex-dragon-gets-down-to-work-11953752

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During the first docking, the laser ranging system was thrown off by sunlight glinting from the space station. Musk says the problem has been fixed. "LIDAR is sort of a 3D laser scanner that scans something and then it comes up with a point cloud and tries to figure out what it’s looking at," he says. "The system tries to fit that with what it’s expecting to see, and then, using that, it figures out what the relative position and motion is between Dragon and the space station. And it uses that to plot an approach vector."

During that first approach in May, the Dragon was working from a model of the ISS that wasn’t totally accurate, as pieces have been added to and subtracted from the real-life station. "There was a reflector on the Japanese model that was extremely bright and it was showing up to a far greater degree than we expected," Musk says. SpaceX solved the problem on the fly by uploading some new code to narrow the field of view, similar to putting blinders on a horse so it doesn’t get distracted. That temporary fix has morphed into a permanent reprogramming. "We’ve improved the software on the LIDAR, on the image-recognition software, so if it encounters this again it would not have a problem," Musk says.

Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1126 on: 08/28/2012 07:28 pm »
The timeline for reflector changes and DragonEye demos was as follows:

May 2008 - STS-124 delivers JEM (TCS reflectors 7 and 8 )
July 2009 - STS-127 performs first DragonEye demo
Feb 2011 - STS-133 performs second DragonEye demo and delivers PMM (TCS reflector 9)

There are other reflectors, of course, but they were either present prior to STS-124, or were never visible to Dragon due to placement.

Now, the DragonEye demos flew the normal shuttle approach profile (Rbar approach to 180 m, flyaround to Vbar with arrival at ~130 m). The JEM reflectors have a shield facing the Vbar that prevented the shuttle from seeing those reflectors while on the Vbar. The anomaly on the COTS 2+ flight occurred within 180 m, so it may have been a range-dependent phenomenon. 

SpaceX released a trio of images from the STS-127 flight, a lidar range image, a lidar intensity image, and a thermal camera image.  In both lidar images it is seen that the return from the 1" velocity-facing retro on PMA-2 play havoc with the image.

From Wikipedia "The DragonEye on STS-133 incorporated several design and software improvements from the version flown on STS-127 to provide increased performance."  It was assumed that these improvements were to fix just this problem.  (See also Chris Bergin's STS-133 article.)

The two JEM retro arrays are "hemispheres" with six 1" retros facing 60 degrees from nadir at 60 degree intervals around the edge, and one pointing straight down.   Given the 45 by 45 degree FOV of DragonEye, it is seen that anwhere more than about 20 meters down the R-bar they are both in the FOV.  The calculated returns from the retros are enormous, given the 2.5 to 7 mJ/pulse at 1.57 microns and certain geometrical factors.  (I can calculate the actual range if I can find in my files the coordnates of the retros on the ISS.)

PS: No intent to shoot the messenger.  Elon was being loose with his terminology again when he said "scan".  Him, I will cut some slack.  :)
« Last Edit: 08/28/2012 09:38 pm by Comga »
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline MP99

The location of the retroreflectors on the JEM were known years in advance.
There was evidence of their effect on DragonEye years in advance, too.
DragonEye does not "scan".  It is has a 2D detector array. 
Any change in the FOV (or FOR) would be electronic, not physical as one could do with a scanner.

Don't shoot the messenger.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/news/coming-in-october-spacex-dragon-gets-down-to-work-11953752

Quote
During the first docking, the laser ranging system was thrown off by sunlight glinting from the space station. Musk says the problem has been fixed. "LIDAR is sort of a 3D laser scanner that scans something and then it comes up with a point cloud and tries to figure out what it’s looking at," he says.

Isn't the point that it's the LASER that does the scanning to paint the target, and the 2D detector array just passively detects where the bright spot appears in the FOV.

cheers, Martin

Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1128 on: 08/29/2012 07:42 pm »
The location of the retroreflectors on the JEM were known years in advance.
There was evidence of their effect on DragonEye years in advance, too.
DragonEye does not "scan".  It is has a 2D detector array. 
Any change in the FOV (or FOR) would be electronic, not physical as one could do with a scanner.

Don't shoot the messenger.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/space/news/coming-in-october-spacex-dragon-gets-down-to-work-11953752

Quote
During the first docking, the laser ranging system was thrown off by sunlight glinting from the space station. Musk says the problem has been fixed. "LIDAR is sort of a 3D laser scanner that scans something and then it comes up with a point cloud and tries to figure out what it’s looking at," he says.

Isn't the point that it's the LASER that does the scanning to paint the target, and the 2D detector array just passively detects where the bright spot appears in the FOV.

cheers, Martin

The laser does NOT scan.  It broadcasts as a single pulse covering the entire 45 degree square cone.  This is an imaging lidar, similar to one I worked on.  I am familiar with the ASC detector, and most details are readily available on their web page. 

While the web page says that the laser output energy energy is variable, from 2.5 to 7 mJ per pulse, it is very unlikely that the beam angle is adjustable.   

What I am guessing at is that DragonEye has electronic windowing, where it reads only a subset of its 128 by 128 pixel array.  This is how they changed the FOV in software.
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1129 on: 08/29/2012 08:35 pm »
I suspect that people are using too tight a definition of the word 'scan'.  Simply because 100 years ago something physical had to move does not prevent modern detector technology reducing the searching part to a loop in the software.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_scanning

Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1130 on: 08/30/2012 02:45 am »
I suspect that people are using too tight a definition of the word 'scan'.  Simply because 100 years ago something physical had to move does not prevent modern detector technology reducing the searching part to a loop in the software.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_scanning

Wikipedia?  No

The term "scan" is wrong here.  That word is not used when talking about detector readout.  I am not going into all the slang usages because we are generally engineers, either professional or armchair, and engineers use tight definitions.  That Musk as the spokesman may have used it loosely in a public discussion is not the issue now.  I am telling you what I know of the technical details of the systems so people here can better understand what SpaceX did to solve their problem during COTS-2+.

The Neptec lidar system SpaceX DOESN'T use on Dragon but OSC DOES use on Cygnus has an optomechanical scan system.  It can change the solid angle illuminated, that is scan over larger or smaller angles, but the DragonEye cannot.  The angular extent of Draboneye's images can only be limited electronically to a fraction of the Field of View.

The Orion VNS lidar tested on STORRM on STS-134 actually has two Fields of Illumination, a narrow one for long range and a wide one for short range.  This is done electronically without mechanical actuation.  However, like DragonEye, its Field of View is fixed, although the area of the detector that is read can be reduced or "windowed".

By the way, there is an interesting 3D video in the upper left of  this page from Advanced Scientific.  It shows the front of the ISS as imaged by the DragonEye on STS-133.  (Note that the image is rotated from what one might expect, with the nadir vector to the Earth on the left, the port side JEM on the bottom, and starboard side Columbus on the top, and Harmony with PMA-2 in the middle.) Occasionally there are glints from the forward facing retroreflector on the side of PMA-2 that give hints as to the problems encountered on COTS-2+.

edit: removed an ambiguity
« Last Edit: 08/30/2012 02:46 am by Comga »
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline grythumn

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1131 on: 08/30/2012 03:03 pm »
The laser does NOT scan.  It broadcasts as a single pulse covering the entire 45 degree square cone.  This is an imaging lidar, similar to one I worked on.  I am familiar with the ASC detector, and most details are readily available on their web page.

Traditional LIDAR does scan, usually using rotating or pivoting mirror(s); I think the beam spreader in this design is confusing people. I imagine the range for this type of LIDAR is much shorter, but you get higher frame rates and less processing is needed to transform the point cloud into a working 3D surface?

-R C
(Who usually only works with preprocessed First and Last return and gridded bare earth DEM products, but has read about the process...)

Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1132 on: 08/30/2012 07:46 pm »
The laser does NOT scan.  It broadcasts as a single pulse covering the entire 45 degree square cone.  This is an imaging lidar, similar to one I worked on.  I am familiar with the ASC detector, and most details are readily available on their web page.

Traditional LIDAR does scan, usually using rotating or pivoting mirror(s); I think the beam spreader in this design is confusing people. I imagine the range for this type of LIDAR is much shorter, but you get higher frame rates and less processing is needed to transform the point cloud into a working 3D surface?

-R C
(Who usually only works with preprocessed First and Last return and gridded bare earth DEM products, but has read about the process...)

Yes. "Traditional" systems use a single, high speed detector to detect the time of flight of a short laser pulse.  DragonEye and Orion VNS use "imaging lidar" detectors, arrays of detectors, (128 square for DragonEye and 256 square for VNS), each of which performs the function of the "traditional" single element lidar detector.

Almost by definition, if you spread the illumination over 128^2 or 256^2 IFOVs/detectors, they each have less energy than if it were concentrated for a single detector, and therefore less range.  That's why Orion VNS has a narrow beam for long range.
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline Garrett

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1133 on: 08/30/2012 09:33 pm »
Yes. "Traditional" systems use a single, high speed detector to detect the time of flight of a short laser pulse.  DragonEye and Orion VNS use "imaging lidar" detectors, arrays of detectors, (128 square for DragonEye and 256 square for VNS), each of which performs the function of the "traditional" single element lidar detector.

Just jumping in here to ask Comga a quick question. After following the last couple of posts and then doing some Googling, is the DragonEye better described as a "3-D gated viewing laser radar" (as described here: http://www.stanfordcomputeroptics.com/a-3d-gated-viewing-laser-radar.html) instead of as a LIDAR? Or is the former simply a subset of the latter?
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Offline dcporter

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1134 on: 08/31/2012 04:00 am »
I think the distinction is worth keeping - if the sensor uses light (like DragonEye), it's LIDAR, if it uses RF, it's radar. The use of "laser radar" should be discouraged.

RF is just really long-waved light.  HaHA, PHYSICS!

*runs off*

Offline manboy

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1135 on: 08/31/2012 04:14 am »
I think the distinction is worth keeping - if the sensor uses light (like DragonEye), it's LIDAR, if it uses RF, it's radar. The use of "laser radar" should be discouraged.

RF is just really long-waved light.  HaHA, PHYSICS!

*runs off*
:D
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1136 on: 08/31/2012 04:20 am »
I think the distinction is worth keeping - if the sensor uses light (like DragonEye), it's LIDAR, if it uses RF, it's radar. The use of "laser radar" should be discouraged.

RF is just really long-waved light.  HaHA, PHYSICS!

*runs off*

Actually, not in practice. 

The detection is fundamentally different.  We detect radio in a coherent fashion, and light mostly radiometrically.  Sort of the wave / particle duality thing.  If we detect the return with an antenna, its a wave and radar.  If we detect the absorbed energy, its a photon and lidar. 

OK.  Ha Ha,  Physics! :P

I wholeheartedly agree with Jorge's distinction, at least for all the systems we are discussing here and almost every lidar I have ever read about.
« Last Edit: 08/31/2012 04:21 am by Comga »
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline dcporter

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1137 on: 08/31/2012 04:22 am »
If we detect the return with an antenna, its a wave and radar.  If we detect the absorbed energy, its a photon and lidar. 

<3. I was dearly hoping I could have shenanigans and learn something too.

Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1138 on: 08/31/2012 04:57 am »
Yes. "Traditional" systems use a single, high speed detector to detect the time of flight of a short laser pulse.  DragonEye and Orion VNS use "imaging lidar" detectors, arrays of detectors, (128 square for DragonEye and 256 square for VNS), each of which performs the function of the "traditional" single element lidar detector.

Just jumping in here to ask Comga a quick question. After following the last couple of posts and then doing some Googling, is the DragonEye better described as a "3-D gated viewing laser radar" (as described here: http://www.stanfordcomputeroptics.com/a-3d-gated-viewing-laser-radar.html) instead of as a LIDAR? Or is the former simply a subset of the latter?

That is a neat reference, using a gated camera and a short pulse width laser to create a form of imaging lidar.  However, the images are built up over some time, after multiple images over 20 msec per range step.  This is akin to the scanning system, just building up the image in the distance dimension, instead of along the beam scan. 

It can be noted that many of the technical references from refereed journals include the term "laser radar" in their titles.  Apparently, Jorge's and my distinction of terminology is not universally shared in the industry.  Oh well.

edit: To answer your question, no, DragonEye and the Orion VNS work on different principles.  Each can build up a 3D image from a single pulse.  Each detector element includes one or more pairs of intensity and range rec orders.  When a pulse exceeds a threshold, the detector element records how strong the return signal is and when it arrives.  Google DragonEye and read the descriptions from ASC.  The system in the paper records images of all points within some narrow range gate.  After building up SNR with multiple pulses, it advances the range gate to the next time-of-flight = distance and records more images.  As with the scanning system it can be fast, but it is on the fractions of a second scale, not fractions of a microsecond.   
« Last Edit: 08/31/2012 05:04 am by Comga »
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline peter-b

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) GENERAL DISCUSSION
« Reply #1139 on: 09/05/2012 01:28 pm »
It can be noted that many of the technical references from refereed journals include the term "laser radar" in their titles.  Apparently, Jorge's and my distinction of terminology is not universally shared in the industry.  Oh well.

When I come across a paper with "laser radar" in the title, abstract or keywords, I usually move on to the next paper.  ;)
Research Scientist (Sensors), Sharp Laboratories of Europe, UK

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