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#60 by Robotbeat on 12 Mar, 2012 17:48
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A quick internet search on gamma ray shielding gives:
Gamma rays are not a main source of radiation dose in deep space. For the vast majority, it's energetic charged particles that we're worrying about here. Just a FYI.
http://www.canlaser.com/en/GammaRay.aspx
http://www.isotechshielding.com/products.html
I have no idea how well this stuff works but I will ask around the other floor sweepers and see if they know something
(the union of concerned floor sweepers)
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#61 by Danderman on 12 Mar, 2012 22:12
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Better to use a Kvant derivative for the Russian hab module than a Zvezda class module; that would save 10 tons.
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#62 by Robotbeat on 12 Mar, 2012 22:46
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Better to use a Kvant derivative for the Russian hab module than a Zvezda class module; that would save 10 tons.
By that logic, even better would be no Russian module at all.
For the gateway (placed at EML-1), mass isn't so much of a concern because it is moved via a SEP tug, which isn't very sensitive to mass growth. For a mission module (which will go through large delta-vs several times), you are much more sensitive to mass growth.
Zvezda/Zarya-class modules offer significantly greater capability than Kvant-class. -
#63 by robertross on 13 Mar, 2012 00:46
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Better to use a Kvant derivative for the Russian hab module than a Zvezda class module; that would save 10 tons.
By that logic, even better would be no Russian module at all.
For the gateway (placed at EML-1), mass isn't so much of a concern because it is moved via a SEP tug, which isn't very sensitive to mass growth. For a mission module (which will go through large delta-vs several times), you are much more sensitive to mass growth.
Zvezda/Zarya-class modules offer significantly greater capability than Kvant-class.
And if they used the reuseable lander to go from EML-1 to the lunar polar surface and back, they could possibly save a ton of money transporting water for the radiation shield (rather than sending it up from Earth, assuming the poles support that much water/ice).
The benefit of this approach is that you would 'theoretically' want/need a mining operation on the lunar surface anyway, so this becomes a good dual-purpose solution, as it helps test out/develop the technology. -
#64 by Danderman on 13 Mar, 2012 01:20
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Better to use a Kvant derivative for the Russian hab module than a Zvezda class module; that would save 10 tons.
By that logic, even better would be no Russian module at all.
Zvezda/Zarya-class modules offer significantly greater capability than Kvant-class.
Zvezda and Zarya are different classes of modules with significantly differing capabilities. Kvant, however, is a 3rd class, with capabilities that would be useful in the context of the Boeing concept.
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#65 by Robotbeat on 13 Mar, 2012 01:27
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I'm aware of that, though Zvezda and Zarya are roughly in the same mass class (which is what I had in mind) and have independent propulsion (refuelable), solar arrays, etc.Better to use a Kvant derivative for the Russian hab module than a Zvezda class module; that would save 10 tons.
By that logic, even better would be no Russian module at all.
Zvezda/Zarya-class modules offer significantly greater capability than Kvant-class.
Zvezda and Zarya are different classes of modules with significantly differing capabilities. Kvant, however, is a 3rd class, with capabilities that would be useful in the context of the Boeing concept. -
#66 by Danderman on 13 Mar, 2012 16:32
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I'm aware of that, though Zvezda and Zarya are roughly in the same mass class (which is what I had in mind) and have independent propulsion (refuelable), solar arrays, etc.
[/quote]
Rather than just have an abstract discussion on this, let me provide some information that supports my contention that in a Real World system that has the requirement to include a Russian hab module, a Kvant derived system is preferable to a Zvezda or Zarya/Kvant 2 class module.
First off, let me lay out the additional top level requirements for such a module in the context of the Boeing proposal:
1) Connect to Boeing segment.
2) Provide docking port for Russian visiting vehicle.
3) Provide additional pressurized volume for crew (beyond US segment volume).
4) Contain and support Russian ECLSS.
5) Provide power to at least Russian segment.
6) Provide sleeping quarters to crew.
7) Support Russian science.
I don't know of any requirements for the Russian module to provide propulsion or attitude control for the Exploration platform, and in Real World engineering, any mass allocated to functions that are not requirements or even desirements is a wasted mass. Although mass is not critical to PowerPoint concepts, in the Real World, every kilogram of wasted mass is a Bad Thing, since that kilogram could be used for additional spare parts or medical supplies, or prop.
Zvezda is a 20 ton+ class module, with most of that mass, but not all, utilized to meet the requirements above.
Zarya is a 20 ton class module, with most of that mass used for purposes other than the requirements above.
Kvant is a 10 ton class module with all of that mass used to meet the requirements above.
