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The Tiangong modules thread
by
PeterAlt
on 23 Feb, 2012 07:46
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I've caught myself up on the details of the Chinese plans for the Tiangong "proto-station" modules. Tiangong 1 is the prototype unmanned logistics carrier (like the Russian Progress), smallest of the three with just one docking port. Tiangong 2 is the prototype standard non-core station module and has docking ports on both ends. Tiangong 3 is the largest of the three and is the prototype space station core mode, with a 5-port docking node at one end and another docking port at the other end.
Supposedly, each of these proto-stations would be deorbited before the next one is launched and at the end of Tiangong 3's life, the first module of the real space station would launch. This first module would be exactly like Tiangong 3, and the subsequent modules to be attached and added would be the same as Tiangong 2.
Would it be wiser for them, after Tiangong 2 is tested (and if it works as planned) not to deorbit it and attach it to Tiangong 3 upon that module's launch? That way, they can start building their station right away, saving time and money. If Tiangong 3 works as planned, after extensive testing, they can then go ahead with the other Tiangong 2-based modules. I'm not trying to tell the Chinese what to do, but it seems odd to me that they plan on destroying these prototype modules that are exactly the same as the planned station modules -even if they do work as planned and are in perfect health. Maybe this is their plan unofficially?
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#1
by
Phillip Clark
on 23 Feb, 2012 12:09
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Do we have Chinese sources for all of the above?
Why would Tiangong 3 have a multiple docking adapter at the "front" if modules are not going to be docked with it?
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#2
by
Watchdog
on 23 Feb, 2012 13:00
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If we assume some similarities between the Chinese procedures and those of the former Soviet Union they possibly want to test the space station hardware components extensively before they subsequently launch an improved version of higher complexity.
If they decide that the Tiangong 3 core module will have a multiple docking adapter they may want to test various aspects of the module connected e.g. to stability with two or three attached moduls (vibrations), the docking crane and orbit changes using its thrusters.
Tiangong 3 could also be the military version of the final modular station. This version may contain different equipment compared to the civil station and even a modified multiple docking port with only one or two side hatches.
It would enhance the prestige of their manned space flight programme if they invite partners from developing countries to join them with their own astronauts and provide them research opportunities. This politically driven strategy may finally include even paying tourists from any country. Therefore, I expect the final multiple module station to serve mostly civilian purposes.
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#3
by
lucspace
on 23 Feb, 2012 13:08
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As far as I know from Chinese sources, TG-1 and -2 are identical and TG-3 would have two docking ports.
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#4
by
tonyq
on 23 Feb, 2012 13:12
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As far as I know from Chinese sources, TG-1 and -2 are identical and TG-3 would have two docking ports.
I'm pretty sure that Chinese sources have already said that TG-2 is built, and was initially an identical back-up for TG-1.
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#5
by
PeterAlt
on 23 Feb, 2012 14:34
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As far as I know from Chinese sources, TG-1 and -2 are identical and TG-3 would have two docking ports.
Here are the specifications of all three according to Wikipedia. Note the increased size and weight per successive module.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiangong_1[/size]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiangong-2[size=88%]
Tiangong-2
天宫二号 |
[size=90%]A display mock-up of Tiangong-2. [/size] |
Station statistics |
| Crew | 3 |
| Launch | 2013 (planned) |
| Mass | 20,000 kilograms (44,000 lb) |
| Length | 14.4 metres (47 ft) |
| Diameter | 4.2 metres (14 ft) |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiangong-3[size=88%]
Tiangong-3
天宫三号Station statistics |
| Crew | 3 |
| Launch | 2015 (planned) |
| Mass | 22,000 kilograms (49,000 lb) |
| Length | 18.1 metres (59 ft) |
| Diameter | 4.2 metres (14 ft) |
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#6
by
Space Pete
on 23 Feb, 2012 16:11
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Why would they put two docking ports on TG-2? Would they send two SZs up there simultaneously?
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#7
by
Moe Grills
on 23 Feb, 2012 17:45
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Something's not right!
Tiangong-2 will have an estimated mass of 20 metric tons;
and is expected to be launched in 2013.
But China does not YET have a launcher capable of putting anything more than 14,000Kg into LEO.
And the planned first launch of the advanced Chinese booster capable
of putting upto 25 tonnes into LEO is not expected to take place until 2014,
Something doesn't add up.
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#8
by
Watchdog
on 23 Feb, 2012 19:46
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Tiangong 2 is supposed to be orbited by the newly developed Long March 7. Tiangong 1 had a launch mass of about 8.5 metric tons. The margin of CZ-7 for LEO is 10 to 20 tons depending on the booster configuration. Although the inaugural launch of CZ-7 is supposed to occur in 2013 and should be the first of the three new launchers (CZ-6 and CZ-5 are the other two), it is unknown whether the Chinese really want to use the first risky flight of the CZ-7 to orbit the Tiangong research laboratory.
These are the facts. Now, let us speculate a little. If it is true that they built a backup Tiangong 1 - which seems reasonable to me - Tiangong 2 could be launched by CZ-2F/G in 2013 and would allow a proper testing of CZ-7 without risking the loss of a station module during the inaugural flight. This would allow them a continuation of manned flights in 2013.
The 10-20 metric tons laboratory module could than be Tiangong 3, but most probably with only one docking adaptor, because the application variants wonīt have a second one and a modification is possibly too demanding. We could expect its launch in 2014/2015.
The next step could be the launch of Tiangong 4 using CZ-5 in the 2015/2016 time frame. This about 20 tons core module would be used for resupply flights with Tiangong 1 like space frighters. This station could have at least two docking ports. It could also be used for additional EVA trainings and/or military applications.
The construction of the first permanently manned modular station - Tiangong 5 - could start in the 2018/2019 time frame and be finished right in time according to the announcements at the end of 2020, ironically at a time ISS is supposed to reach the end of its life (what I personally donīt think).
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#9
by
Robotbeat
on 23 Feb, 2012 21:39
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...
And the planned first launch of the advanced Chinese booster capable
of putting upto 25 tonnes into LEO is not expected to take place until 2014,
...
And that first launch will not be the "heavy" version, so will not be capable of anything close to 25 mT. We do not know when the heavy version will launch.
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#10
by
Danderman
on 23 Feb, 2012 23:56
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The next step could be the launch of Tiangong 4 using CZ-5 in the 2015/2016 time frame.
I would be careful speculating on the dates of when the Chinese will do stuff. With a launch rate of 1 human crewed spacecraft every 2 years or so, suggesting a 4th space station within 3 or 4 years is very speculative indeed.
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#11
by
Watchdog
on 24 Feb, 2012 09:30
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The next step could be the launch of Tiangong 4 using CZ-5 in the 2015/2016 time frame.
I would be careful speculating on the dates of when the Chinese will do stuff. With a launch rate of 1 human crewed spacecraft every 2 years or so, suggesting a 4th space station within 3 or 4 years is very speculative indeed.
Yes, you are right. These are very optimistic assumptions. However, between April 1971 and January 1975 the U.S.S.R. managed to launch 4 space stations (DOS 1 & 4; OPS 2 & 3) and eight manned spacecraft (Soyuz 10-17) within 4 years, despite the loss of a crew and two additional launch/space station failures (DOS 2; OPS 1).
Regarding the launch rate of manned spacecraft, the Chinese not only improved the launcher (CZ-2F/G) and spaceship (Shenzhou), but also developed the space frighter prototype and built up ground control and space-based data relay infrastructures. They certainly will increase the flight rate to at least two missions per year.
Finally, the relative small experimental modules may fly unmanned duration tests in parallele to check out the performance of installed hard ware over extended periods.
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#12
by
PeterAlt
on 25 Feb, 2012 08:38
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After reading the article about China's large module station (CSS) in Wikipedia, I found this paragraph about Tiangong 1:
Originally, China planned to simply dock Shenzhou 8 and Shenzhou 9 together to form a simple space laboratory. However, it was decided to abandon that plan and launch a small space laboratory instead. In 2007, plans for a "space laboratory", Tiangong 1 were announced. Subsequent flights (Shenzhou 9 and Shenzhou 10) would dock with the laboratory. Tiangong 1 consisted of a propulsion module, and a pressurized module for experiments, with a docking mechanism at both ends. The docking port of the experiment section supported automated docking. Launched on September 29, 2011, it was intended for short stays of a crew of three.[11][12][13] The second docking port, on the propulsion module, was kept screened from press photography inside and outside the module.
So, I stand corrected. Tiangong 1 does have dual docking ports. I wonder if the cargo variation also will have two ports. This could allow multiple cargo vessels docked without needing the addition of node modules, I would think.
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#13
by
Phillip Clark
on 25 Feb, 2012 08:50
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I think that they are saying that there are two ports on the larger-diameter cylindrical section, not two ports on Tiangong 1 available for docking. Some illustrations show what appears to be a hatch that connects with the service module section, although it appears to be covered will the wall material up in the photos of Tiangong in its launch configuration.
And who says other that Wikipedia that Shenzhou 8/9 were planned for a docking? While there are animations available of the Shenzhou docking with a discarded orbital module from an earlier Shenzhou, there have never been any Chinese animations which show two complete Shenzhou craft docked together. Maybe Shenzhou 9 was originally lated to dock with the SZ8 orbital module, but is there an authoritative Chinese source for this?
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#14
by
manboy
on 25 Feb, 2012 09:11
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After reading the article about China's large module station (CSS) in Wikipedia, I found this paragraph about Tiangong 1:
Originally, China planned to simply dock Shenzhou 8 and Shenzhou 9 together to form a simple space laboratory. However, it was decided to abandon that plan and launch a small space laboratory instead. In 2007, plans for a "space laboratory", Tiangong 1 were announced. Subsequent flights (Shenzhou 9 and Shenzhou 10) would dock with the laboratory. Tiangong 1 consisted of a propulsion module, and a pressurized module for experiments, with a docking mechanism at both ends. The docking port of the experiment section supported automated docking. Launched on September 29, 2011, it was intended for short stays of a crew of three.[11][12][13] The second docking port, on the propulsion module, was kept screened from press photography inside and outside the module.
So, I stand corrected. Tiangong 1 does have dual docking ports. I wonder if the cargo variation also will have two ports. This could allow multiple cargo vessels docked without needing the addition of node modules, I would think.
Tiangong 1 only has one docking port.
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#15
by
Phillip Clark
on 25 Feb, 2012 15:17
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Have the Chinese specifically said anywhere that Tiangong 2 will have two docking ports and that Tiangong 3 will be like the modular space station with five docking ports at the front like the Mir core?
I still think it is reasonable for Tiangong 2 to be like Tiangong 1 (and once more use the CZ-2FT launcher) and then we have a larger module with two docking ports for Tiangong 3 (CZ-7?): maybe a two docking port version of the plug-on modules while will be the equivalents of the Kvant 2, Kristall, etc modules which were added to the Mir core.
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#16
by
PeterAlt
on 25 Feb, 2012 23:57
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The Tiangong 3 modules are supposed to be 18.1 meters long and 4.2 meters in diameter, weighing 22 tons. Compared to Zvezda, which is 13.1 meters longs and 4.15 meters in diameter, weighing 20 tons. The Chinese core module will be 5 meters longer than the Russian core with roughly the same diameter.
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#17
by
Danderman
on 26 Feb, 2012 00:21
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These are very optimistic assumptions. However, between April 1971 and January 1975 the U.S.S.R. managed to launch 4 space stations (DOS 1 & 4; OPS 2 & 3) and eight manned spacecraft (Soyuz 10-17) within 4 years, despite the loss of a crew and two additional launch/space station failures (DOS 2; OPS 1).
Comparing the launch rate of the USSR during the cold war with China's launch rate only instructs us that the Chinese launch rate for crewed spacecraft is painfully slow.
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#18
by
Dalhousie
on 26 Feb, 2012 01:03
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Comparing the launch rate of the USSR during the cold war with China's launch rate only instructs us that the Chinese launch rate for crewed spacecraft is painfully slow.
However terms of time to milestones the progress is quite comparable.
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#19
by
Phillip Clark
on 26 Feb, 2012 09:01
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The Tiangong 3 modules are supposed to be 18.1 meters long and 4.2 meters in diameter, weighing 22 tons. Compared to Zvezda, which is 13.1 meters longs and 4.15 meters in diameter, weighing 20 tons. The Chinese core module will be 5 meters longer than the Russian core with roughly the same diameter.
My comments were meant to relate to functionality rather than the specific design of the modules.
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#20
by
Phillip Clark
on 27 Jun, 2012 12:12
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After initial discussion on the Shenzhou 9 thread, as Chris B has suggested, it's time to begin a thread dedicated to what we know, don't know, suspect and deduce after entering states of alternate conciousness with appropriate chemicals about the possibilities for Tiangong 2 and Tiangong 3.
There is already a thread for the modular space station which the Chinese are planning for the end of this decade. These are the missions I can imagine before that station starts to fly.
So,............
Right now I see Tiangong 2 as using the back-up Tiangong 1 module, with whatever upgrades the Chinese believe to be appropriate. Some science experiments, photoreconnaissance equipment, life support capable of flights of up to around two months.
Then on maybe the second or third flight of the CZ-5 class launcher (due to debut in 2014) we will see something new: a module in the 20 tonnes Salyut 6/7 class with two docking ports. This could host one cargo freighter variant of Tiangong annually with extra sandwiches, etc and individual crew occupancies of up to six months or so. This would give the Chinese experience with using the cargo freighter variant of Tiangong 1 and also flying missions which are in line with the notional 6 months of an ISS crew, as well as undertaking a wider scientific programme and other work, possibly involving downward-pointing cameras. (Depends how the Yaogan Weixing programme develops, of course.)
It is possible but I believe unlikely that the CZ-5 will carry a Tiangong of any design on its maiden flight.
Anyone agree? Violently disagree? Somewhere inbetween?
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#21
by
Satori
on 27 Jun, 2012 12:28
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#22
by
Phillip Clark
on 27 Jun, 2012 12:35
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Oh dear, I try to do the right thing .......... !
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#23
by
Ben the Space Brit
on 27 Jun, 2012 13:10
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Why would they put two docking ports on TG-2? Would they send two SZs up there simultaneously?
Yes, one crew and one freight, just like the very similar Salut-6 and -7 would have a Soyuz and a (externally identical) Progress docked simultaneously.
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#24
by
Danderman
on 27 Jun, 2012 13:40
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It would be nice for the backup Tiangong module to be used as a destination for space tourists.
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#25
by
Ben the Space Brit
on 27 Jun, 2012 15:45
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Regarding Tiangong-2: The picture at the top of this thread looks like a Salut/Mir-class station. However, several people have said that this cannot be launched before Long March 5 enters service. Could Tiangong-2 actually be the same type as TG-1 but with an aft docking port? That would allow robotic SZs to be used for resupply and reboost.
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#26
by
Phillip Clark
on 27 Jun, 2012 16:32
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I have yet to be convinced that the display model whch apparently shows a Tiangong 1 class module with a docking port at each end represents reality.
If both dockng ports were to be occupied then which didn't the display model show them both occupied?
Note that the model Shenzhou has solar panels on the orbital module while *no* official Chinese representations of a Shenzhou docking with anything has shown that Shenzhou to have solar panels on the orbital module.
This alone calls into questipon the reliability of the model.
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#27
by
Spiff
on 27 Jun, 2012 17:14
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Here is my, purely speculative, guesstimate of what the Chinese Tiangong and beyond program will look like:
Tiangong1:
After SZ9 there will be only the SZ10 flight. This will be late 2012 or early 2013. The flight will, at first glance, be similar to SZ9. That is: 3 person crew, approx. 10 days docking/13 days total flight time. I don't pretend to be able to speculate over the goals of this mission, but I suppose it will focus more on the actual station, and less on the docking/manoeuvring part that SZ9 seems to focus on.
Tiangong2:
Similar in size to Tiangong1, with only a single docking port. So no resupply capability. It has been mentioned that Tiangong2 will have (limited?) recycling capability, making longer but still limited stays possible. My guess is that it will launch mid to end 2013. Two missions will fly to Tiangong2. SZ11 in late 2013/early 2014 and SZ12 late 2014. I'm guessing both missions to be 3 crewmembers again, and both missions lasting about 30 days. Where the missions to Tiangong1 were proof of concept missions, the missions to Tiangong2 will focus more on actual work in space and crew/ground interaction during longer missions. This will lay the basis for Tiangong3.
Tiangong3:
This is the proof of concept mission of the base block of the planned modular station. It is in my view a Salyut6/7 class station, so its mass is anywhere between 15 and 20 tons, and it will have 2 dockingports. As stated by other users, this requires the CZ5 launch vehicle and Hainan launch pad to be operational. I'm guessing it will not launch earlier than mid 2015, with a fairly high chance of a delay into 2016. Once launched, the SZ missions can enter a new phase of longer missions including resupply by TG1 derived vehicles. This will teach the Chinese the operational and logistical requirements of a (semi-) permanently habited space station. Entering the realm of completely wild speculation: I'm guessing anywhere between 4 and 10 manned missions to visit Tiangong3 with missiontimes anywhere between 40 and 180 days. This will start in 2016 and continue until 2018/2019.
Modular station:
Launch of the core module in or around 2020. The core module is essentially the same as Tiangong3 with some improvements that I dare not yet speculate on. The only obvious one being the possibility to dock other modules. This station will be used more or less like MIR was used, with regular manned and unmanned flights and continuous habitation.
Total guesswork based on what I have been reading in the several Chinese threads so far. Time will tell how far I was of the mark.
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#28
by
Phillip Clark
on 27 Jun, 2012 17:29
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I am sure that somewhere the Chinese have indicated that there will be three Shenzhou missions to each of Tiangongs 1-3. Of course for numbers 2 and 3 all three Shenzhous will be with a crew.
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#29
by
Stan Black
on 27 Jun, 2012 20:06
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So if Tiangong-2 started as the reserve for Tiangong-1; and Tiangong-3 is different revised design. Will there be a reserve for Tiangong-3?
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#30
by
Phillip Clark
on 27 Jun, 2012 21:26
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So if Tiangong-2 started as the reserve for Tiangong-1; and Tiangong-3 is different revised design. Will there be a reserve for Tiangong-3?
Maybe the Tiangong 2 back-up will be rescheded as the first cargo freighter varaint to Tiangong 3?
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#31
by
Galactic Penguin SST
on 28 Jun, 2012 06:43
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This Xinhua article settles it:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2012-06/28/c_112308570.htm...
As China's currently largest manned spacecraft, Tiangong 1 has a designed life of 2 years, with 6 dockings planned during its lifetime. Since its launch on September 29, 2011, Tiangong 1 has been in orbit for 272 days, and has docked 4 times with Shenzhou 8 and 9.
"From the current situation, Tiangong 1 will very probably last for more than 2 years." said (CMSE's) Spacecraft System Chief Manager He Yu. He said Tiangong 1's power supply is in good shape, and less than one-fourth of its propellant has been used. All the back-up equipments has yet to be activated. By improving the design of components, careful flight planning and strict quality control, Tiangong 1's flight can be greatly extended.
"It's still in the planning stages," said He Yu, "but we can imagine that if Tiangong 1 is still in good shape, it may fly concurrently in space with the yet-to-fly Tiangong 2."
Sounds like TG-1 and TG-2 may be put in a similar orbit a la Salyut-7/Mir, or the Chinese may even modify TG-2 to have multiple docking hatches and dock it to TG-1! This seems to indicate that TG-1's back-up may fly as TG-2.
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#32
by
vulture4
on 28 Jun, 2012 18:00
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Comparing the launch rate of the USSR during the cold war with China's launch rate only instructs us that the Chinese launch rate for crewed spacecraft is painfully slow.
Or that the Soviet launch rate was risky and Chinese launch rate is prudent. The Chinese program has demonstrated significant advances with each flight and have, SFAIK, had no contingencies with manned spacecraft and no missions that failed to achieve all major objectives. Chinese program manages have said that the slow launch rate was partly because the spacecraft was under active development and modified significantly after each mission.
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#33
by
Phillip Clark
on 28 Jun, 2012 21:16
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Regarding the time between China's piloted launches, I would re-iterate that the Chinese do not see themselves as racing anyone, and therefore there is no reason for them to speed things up.
On the other hand, since the design of Shenzhou is now standardised - for the time being! - this in itself might lead to a higher launch rate. Plus there will be an orbiting base waiting for crews to arrive (sequentially).
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#34
by
Dalhousie
on 28 Jun, 2012 21:38
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Or that the Soviet launch rate was risky and Chinese launch rate is prudent. [/quote]
The same could be sent of the US launch rate on the 60s.
The main thing the Chinese have missed out on is flight time but with a small space statio that is changing.
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#35
by
PeterAlt
on 23 Aug, 2012 04:20
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So if Tiangong-2 started as the reserve for Tiangong-1; and Tiangong-3 is different revised design. Will there be a reserve for Tiangong-3?
No, Tiangong-3 is supposed to be a prototype of the core modular station. So, it's back-up, naturally, is the core module of the modular station.
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#36
by
Lsquirrel
on 24 Aug, 2012 02:51
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a new space station design, first time seen in HK，aug 2012
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#37
by
PeterAlt
on 25 Aug, 2012 18:33
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a new space station design, first time seen in HK，aug 2012
Thanks for the post! From what I can make of it, the biggest difference are the solar wings on the research modules. It looks very similar in concept to Russia's planned science and power modules that are planned to dock to the planned Russian Node Module (which is planned to dock to the planned Multipurpose Laboratory Module, which is planned to replace Pirs).
Any info on how much power this new design is expected to generate, compared to the previous design?
Also, I noticed two Shenzhou docking ports on this new design. I'm assuming this would be used for crew hand-overs. I'm not sure if the previous design had two Shenzhou ports as well, but I don't believe it did.
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#38
by
manboy
on 26 Aug, 2012 00:55
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a new space station design, first time seen in HK，aug 2012
Looks like its basically same design we've seen earlier. The new design for the solar arrays remind me of the ones on the ISS.
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#39
by
PeterAlt
on 26 Aug, 2012 06:38
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a new space station design, first time seen in HK，aug 2012
Looks like its basically same design we've seen earlier. The new design for the solar arrays remind me of the ones on the ISS.
Mostly the same. Large arrays on the research modules, but also two Shenzhou are docked in the illustration (one on the nadir port of the core module's node and another on its forward port). The cargo ship is docked on the core module's aft port. I don't think the previous design had a nadir Shenzhou docking port on the core module node.
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#40
by
Phillip Clark
on 27 Aug, 2012 07:46
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a new space station design, first time seen in HK，aug 2012
Looks like its basically same design we've seen earlier. The new design for the solar arrays remind me of the ones on the ISS.
Mostly the same. Large arrays on the research modules, but also two Shenzhou are docked in the illustration (one on the nadir port of the core module's node and another on its forward port). The cargo ship is docked on the core module's aft port. I don't think the previous design had a nadir Shenzhou docking port on the core module node.
I would speculate that the two Shenzhous indicate a short-term arrangement during a crew rotation, with the nadir Shenzhou - the new one - being rotated to the front longitudinal port when the older crew returns to Earth.
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#41
by
manboy
on 27 Aug, 2012 11:54
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a new space station design, first time seen in HK，aug 2012
Looks like its basically same design we've seen earlier. The new design for the solar arrays remind me of the ones on the ISS.
I don't think the previous design had a nadir Shenzhou docking port on the core module node.
It did.
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#42
by
Dalhousie
on 27 Aug, 2012 23:26
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I would speculate that the two Shenzhous indicate a short-term arrangement during a crew rotation, with the nadir Shenzhou - the new one - being rotated to the front longitudinal port when the older crew returns to Earth.
It would also allow 6 person long duration crews with the rear port available for resupply at all times.
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#43
by
tonyq
on 28 Aug, 2012 10:40
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On a slightly different angle, has anyone seen an authorative comment from Chinese officials on how many flights are planned to each of TG-2 and TG-3?
As TG-1 will host 3 flights (one unmanned and two manned) it would seem unlikely that it will be less than 3 each?
My interest is mainly driven by a focus on the astronaut team; how many are
likely to fly; what recruitment may be needed to support future plans etc.?
Also, the Chinese launch schedule page shows TG-2 as planned for launch in 2013. Do we know if that is still the plan. The comments above in Message #35 that TG-1 may extend beyond 2 years (which would nominally expire in September 2013) could suggest that TG-2 should be in orbit late next year.
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#44
by
Phillip Clark
on 28 Aug, 2012 12:22
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On a slightly different angle, has anyone seen an authorative comment from Chinese officials on how many flights are planned to each of TG-2 and TG-3?
As TG-1 will host 3 flights (one unmanned and two manned) it would seem unlikely that it will be less than 3 each?
My interest is mainly driven by a focus on the astronaut team; how many are
likely to fly; what recruitment may be needed to support future plans etc.?
Also, the Chinese launch schedule page shows TG-2 as planned for launch in 2013. Do we know if that is still the plan. The comments above in Message #35 that TG-1 may extend beyond 2 years (which would nominally expire in September 2013) could suggest that TG-2 should be in orbit late next year.
I cannot immediately recall where this was but I am sure that the Chinese have said that they planned to launch three Shenzhou craft to each of Tiangongs 1 and 2: not sure that anything has been said about Tiangong 3.
As for the Tiangong 1, I think that the Chinese might keep this in orbit simply for longevity testing without any visits beyond Shenzhou 10. On-board systems can be remotely monitored to see how they function once the manned phase as ended. Of course they might decide to emulate the Soviets on Soyuz-T 15 and do a short trip from Tiangong 2 at the end of a residency and travel to Tiangong 1 for a quick visit: that, of course, would depend upon the orbis relative to each other.
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#45
by
PeterAlt
on 28 Aug, 2012 19:08
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a new space station design, first time seen in HK，aug 2012
Looks like its basically same design we've seen earlier. The new design for the solar arrays remind me of the ones on the ISS.
Mostly the same. Large arrays on the research modules, but also two Shenzhou are docked in the illustration (one on the nadir port of the core module's node and another on its forward port). The cargo ship is docked on the core module's aft port. I don't think the previous design had a nadir Shenzhou docking port on the core module node.
I would speculate that the two Shenzhous indicate a short-term arrangement during a crew rotation, with the nadir Shenzhou - the new one - being rotated to the front longitudinal port when the older crew returns to Earth.
Yeah, my speculation is the same. I did say that the second Shenzhou is probably for "hand-overs". It would make sense. I don't think leaving the station unoccupied for any length of time would be wise, although it's entirely possible to operate it remotely.
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#46
by
PeterAlt
on 28 Aug, 2012 19:22
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On a slightly different angle, has anyone seen an authorative comment from Chinese officials on how many flights are planned to each of TG-2 and TG-3?
As TG-1 will host 3 flights (one unmanned and two manned) it would seem unlikely that it will be less than 3 each?
My interest is mainly driven by a focus on the astronaut team; how many are
likely to fly; what recruitment may be needed to support future plans etc.?
Also, the Chinese launch schedule page shows TG-2 as planned for launch in 2013. Do we know if that is still the plan. The comments above in Message #35 that TG-1 may extend beyond 2 years (which would nominally expire in September 2013) could suggest that TG-2 should be in orbit late next year.
A recent news story said that they are considering docking TG-1 to TG-2, leaving TG-1 in orbit when TG-2 is launched. This is being considered because the health of TG-1 is better than expected.
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#47
by
tonyq
on 29 Aug, 2012 09:06
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On a slightly different angle, has anyone seen an authorative comment from Chinese officials on how many flights are planned to each of TG-2 and TG-3?
As TG-1 will host 3 flights (one unmanned and two manned) it would seem unlikely that it will be less than 3 each?
My interest is mainly driven by a focus on the astronaut team; how many are
likely to fly; what recruitment may be needed to support future plans etc.?
Also, the Chinese launch schedule page shows TG-2 as planned for launch in 2013. Do we know if that is still the plan. The comments above in Message #35 that TG-1 may extend beyond 2 years (which would nominally expire in September 2013) could suggest that TG-2 should be in orbit late next year.
I cannot immediately recall where this was but I am sure that the Chinese have said that they planned to launch three Shenzhou craft to each of Tiangongs 1 and 2: not sure that anything has been said about Tiangong 3.
As for the Tiangong 1, I think that the Chinese might keep this in orbit simply for longevity testing without any visits beyond Shenzhou 10. On-board systems can be remotely monitored to see how they function once the manned phase as ended. Of course they might decide to emulate the Soviets on Soyuz-T 15 and do a short trip from Tiangong 2 at the end of a residency and travel to Tiangong 1 for a quick visit: that, of course, would depend upon the orbis relative to each other.
Yes Phil, I think I have read the same, but not sure where or when, that SZ-11,12 and 13 will visit TG-2.
I get the impression, from all the speculation, that the possibilty that TG-1 may be viable well beyond the original 2 year life span, has thrown up a number of options for simultaneous operation of TG-1 and TG-2 which may not have been part of the original plans for two totally independent series of flights.
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#48
by
Spiff
on 31 Aug, 2012 11:16
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On a slightly different angle, has anyone seen an authorative comment from Chinese officials on how many flights are planned to each of TG-2 and TG-3?
As TG-1 will host 3 flights (one unmanned and two manned) it would seem unlikely that it will be less than 3 each?
My interest is mainly driven by a focus on the astronaut team; how many are
likely to fly; what recruitment may be needed to support future plans etc.?
Also, the Chinese launch schedule page shows TG-2 as planned for launch in 2013. Do we know if that is still the plan. The comments above in Message #35 that TG-1 may extend beyond 2 years (which would nominally expire in September 2013) could suggest that TG-2 should be in orbit late next year.
A recent news story said that they are considering docking TG-1 to TG-2, leaving TG-1 in orbit when TG-2 is launched. This is being considered because the health of TG-1 is better than expected.
Interesting. That would imply a 2nd docking port on TG-2. (Or it would imply no SZ dockings to the TG-1/TG-2 complex, which seems unlikely
)
So, if this is indeed a serious consideration, TG-2 is designed with a 2nd dockingport. I don't think they would, or even could change the design at this stage just to be able to dock with TG-1.
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#49
by
Ben the Space Brit
on 31 Aug, 2012 12:44
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Interesting. That would imply a 2nd docking port on TG-2. (Or it would imply no SZ dockings to the TG-1/TG-2 complex, which seems unlikely )
So, if this is indeed a serious consideration, TG-2 is designed with a 2nd dockingport. I don't think they would, or even could change the design at this stage just to be able to dock with TG-1.
Perhaps TG-2 is more like Salut-6/7 and Mir and has a fore and aft port. They may have intended to have double-dockings with a SZ frieghter at the other port for in-mission resupply but they instead decided that doubling up lab space might be a more efficient use of the TG-2 aft port.
Of course, the Chinese space program seems to have a lot of rumour about it. We'll see in due course, as always.
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#50
by
Dappa
on 31 Aug, 2012 12:53
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Interesting. That would imply a 2nd docking port on TG-2. (Or it would imply no SZ dockings to the TG-1/TG-2 complex, which seems unlikely )
So, if this is indeed a serious consideration, TG-2 is designed with a 2nd dockingport. I don't think they would, or even could change the design at this stage just to be able to dock with TG-1.
It could also be that this is just another docking test, albeit with larger modules. In that case TG-1 would be gone when SZ arrives at TG-2, which eliminates the requirement for a second docking port.
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#51
by
Galactic Penguin SST
on 05 Mar, 2013 16:03
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FINALLY! We've got a clearer picture of the timeline to the future Chinese space station,
courtesy of CMSEO's chief Zhou Jianping:
"Speaking about the rumors of a Tiangong 3 in planning stages, Zhou said that China has never announced a Tiangong 3 mission. When the mission of the Tiangong 2 space laboratory is complete, China will directly start the construction of their space station."
So no TG-3 - after the TG-2 mission (~2014-17) China will start the construction of their space station (2018 seems to be a good estimation of the launch of the core module).
[size=90%]Drawing of Tiangong-1 (left) docked to Shenzhou (right)[/size]Station statistics
)