Author Topic: Proposed Europa Missions  (Read 459172 times)

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #60 on: 12/21/2012 06:00 PM »
I was able to split the files up. Here is part 1 for the flyby study. This is actually the best option of the three in terms of cost-benefit.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #61 on: 12/21/2012 06:01 PM »
Flyby part 2.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #62 on: 12/21/2012 06:02 PM »
Europa lander study, part 1.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #63 on: 12/21/2012 06:03 PM »
Europa lander study, part 2.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #64 on: 12/22/2012 12:31 AM »
Some images from the Europa Lander study report.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #65 on: 12/22/2012 02:15 AM »
Europa Flyby spacecraft report images.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #66 on: 12/22/2012 02:15 AM »
Europa Orbiter spacecraft report images.

Offline Star One

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #67 on: 12/23/2012 12:08 PM »
@Blackstar

That article I posted from Space.com about the Europa Clipper how does that fit in with the materials you have just posted?

Online Alpha_Centauri

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #68 on: 12/23/2012 01:01 PM »
Europa Clipper was an early name for the Europa Flyby option above.

Online Alpha_Centauri

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #69 on: 12/23/2012 01:11 PM »
A question from me,

I'm not up to date with the specifics of American politics.  I know there were attempts to get NASA's budget settlement reviewed, what is the current status on this?  Given that the new MSL 2020 rover has been planned based on the current projected budget envelope, if there were a change in the settlement to restore some of the planetary budget would there be sufficient funds to start work on the Europa mission, given that the Mars mission is already selected?
« Last Edit: 12/23/2012 01:12 PM by Alpha_Centauri »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #70 on: 12/23/2012 09:55 PM »
A question from me,

I'm not up to date with the specifics of American politics.  I know there were attempts to get NASA's budget settlement reviewed, what is the current status on this?  Given that the new MSL 2020 rover has been planned based on the current projected budget envelope, if there were a change in the settlement to restore some of the planetary budget would there be sufficient funds to start work on the Europa mission, given that the Mars mission is already selected?

Normally, the President's proposed FY2014 budget would be released in early February. Right now it is on hold and probably will not be released until late February or even March. Until that is released, we will not know what the planetary budget looks like. For instance, did the administration choose to fund the Mars 2020 rover by putting back into the budget the money that it proposed removing last year? Or did it choose to fund the Mars 2020 rover by cutting money from elsewhere in the planetary budget, like New Frontiers and Discovery?

Assume that they restored the money that they cut and that planetary is at about the rate it was projected to be a couple of years ago. There will still not be enough money to fund both the Mars 2020 rover and a Europa mission. Too expensive. The proper thing to do would be to put the money back into the New Frontiers and Discovery program lines, because those were cut too, along with the Mars budget, in the President's proposed FY2013 budget.

Assuming a relatively flat planetary science budget, the earliest that a Europa mission could be funded is in the 2020s.

Offline spectre9

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #71 on: 12/23/2012 10:23 PM »
I think it's a rort.

Sample return can't be done.

A caching rover is not sample return.

This mission is being cheated away.

I'm sure it's worded in such a way that lets it swoop in a steal the money at such a low fidelity (MSL repeat capability) but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do and everybody is going to agree with it.  >:(

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #72 on: 12/24/2012 01:27 AM »
I think it's a rort.

Sample return can't be done.

A caching rover is not sample return.

This mission is being cheated away.

I'm sure it's worded in such a way that lets it swoop in a steal the money at such a low fidelity (MSL repeat capability) but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do and everybody is going to agree with it.  >:(

Okay, first of all, I don't speak Australian, so I don't know what a "rort" is.

Second of all, I'm not sure if you're worth taking seriously or not. So instead of replying, I'll just observe and then make a decision.

Offline spectre9

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #73 on: 12/24/2012 01:57 AM »
I found a word Americans don't use lol

Here's what wiki says
Quote
Rort is a term used in Australia and New Zealand to mean a scam or fraud.[1] It is commonly used in relation to politics or a financial impropriety, particularly relating to a government programme.

Build MSL copy, get samples. No it takes billions more dollars. The whole Europa mission can be done and out the way for the same price.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #74 on: 12/24/2012 02:53 AM »
I'll just continue observing.

But please read the executive summary of the decadal survey as well as these new Europa documents that I posted.
« Last Edit: 12/24/2012 03:57 AM by Blackstar »

Offline baldusi

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #75 on: 12/26/2012 12:01 AM »
I found a word Americans don't use lol

Here's what wiki says
Quote
Rort is a term used in Australia and New Zealand to mean a scam or fraud.[1] It is commonly used in relation to politics or a financial impropriety, particularly relating to a government programme.

Build MSL copy, get samples. No it takes billions more dollars. The whole Europa mission can be done and out the way for the same price.
Why don't you go and read the MSR discussion on the MSL forum? It has answers to what you think.

Offline Star One

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #76 on: 12/27/2012 05:35 PM »
A question from me,

I'm not up to date with the specifics of American politics.  I know there were attempts to get NASA's budget settlement reviewed, what is the current status on this?  Given that the new MSL 2020 rover has been planned based on the current projected budget envelope, if there were a change in the settlement to restore some of the planetary budget would there be sufficient funds to start work on the Europa mission, given that the Mars mission is already selected?

Normally, the President's proposed FY2014 budget would be released in early February. Right now it is on hold and probably will not be released until late February or even March. Until that is released, we will not know what the planetary budget looks like. For instance, did the administration choose to fund the Mars 2020 rover by putting back into the budget the money that it proposed removing last year? Or did it choose to fund the Mars 2020 rover by cutting money from elsewhere in the planetary budget, like New Frontiers and Discovery?

Assume that they restored the money that they cut and that planetary is at about the rate it was projected to be a couple of years ago. There will still not be enough money to fund both the Mars 2020 rover and a Europa mission. Too expensive. The proper thing to do would be to put the money back into the New Frontiers and Discovery program lines, because those were cut too, along with the Mars budget, in the President's proposed FY2013 budget.

Assuming a relatively flat planetary science budget, the earliest that a Europa mission could be funded is in the 2020s.

I would favour taking all the money from the Discovery & New Frontiers budgets for however long it takes and putting it into this instead. As the second highest ranked priority after Mars sample return I regard the financing of this project as far more important than any project that either of these two programmes might be financed for at this time.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #77 on: 12/27/2012 07:22 PM »
I would favour taking all the money from the Discovery & New Frontiers budgets for however long it takes and putting it into this instead. As the second highest ranked priority after Mars sample return I regard the financing of this project as far more important than any project that either of these two programmes might be financed for at this time.

It's fun to have opinions, isn' it?
« Last Edit: 12/27/2012 10:32 PM by Blackstar »

Offline Star One

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #78 on: 12/28/2012 06:55 PM »
I would favour taking all the money from the Discovery & New Frontiers budgets for however long it takes and putting it into this instead. As the second highest ranked priority after Mars sample return I regard the financing of this project as far more important than any project that either of these two programmes might be financed for at this time.

It's fun to have opinions, isn' it?

Is there any good reason not to go this route when money is tight?

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #79 on: 12/29/2012 12:53 AM »
I would favour taking all the money from the Discovery & New Frontiers budgets for however long it takes and putting it into this instead. As the second highest ranked priority after Mars sample return I regard the financing of this project as far more important than any project that either of these two programmes might be financed for at this time.

It's fun to have opinions, isn' it?

Is there any good reason not to go this route when money is tight?

Yes.

Have you read the decadal survey? Do you know what it says? Are you familiar with the history of American planetary science programs over the past thirty years?

I'm guessing that the answers to all my questions are "no."

But what the heck, here goes:

-the priorities for the American planetary science program are established in the planetary science decadal survey. That decadal survey states the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you just asked. It states that when money gets tight, the first thing to do is to scale back or delay flagship class programs like the Europa mission. Only after that is done should cuts be made in other areas, like New Frontiers and Discovery. You can find the decision rules in the decadal survey. At no point does it say that smaller missions should be sacrificed for larger missions.

-Europa is ranked second to the Mars caching rover in the decadal survey. Unfortunately, what this means is that it will not get funded in this decade. Even assuming a flat budget, or even one with a slight increase, the decadal survey does not say do both flagship missions. Now there are a lot of reasons why that happened (the big one being that the Europa mission that was presented to the decadal survey was a bellybuster and not affordable, and it took a blow to the head for the Europa community to actually come up with an affordable mission, which they have now apparently done), but them's the breaks.

-if you want a good example of why what you proposed is a stupid idea, take a look at the astronomy and astrophysics program at NASA. They have sacrificed all their small and medium missions in favor of JWST, which is now eating their lunch. Focusing on a single large mission puts you in a situation where you will have one or two missions per decade vs. half a dozen or more.

-if you want a good example of what could happen, look at NASA's planetary science program during the 1970s into the 1980s. They got into a vicious cycle of fewer and fewer larger and more expensive missions. The result was what many people call "the lost decade" in planetary science. You can see various effects of this, such as 17 years between Mars missions culminating in the very expensive Mars Observer failing on its way to Mars. It's a bad idea to fall into that circle again.
« Last Edit: 12/29/2012 12:08 PM by Blackstar »