Author Topic: Proposed Europa Missions  (Read 453695 times)

Online Zed_Noir

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1620 on: 02/08/2018 09:12 PM »
....
A Europa mission will be able to chose from a variety of rockets, and any (especially new) rocket won't initially be trusted with a payload like a flagship right away.

So sending the Europa Clipper with the first SLS Block 1B is a good idea?  ::)

Online redliox

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1621 on: 02/09/2018 12:15 AM »
....
A Europa mission will be able to chose from a variety of rockets, and any (especially new) rocket won't initially be trusted with a payload like a flagship right away.

So sending the Europa Clipper with the first SLS Block 1B is a good idea?  ::)

Don't be a SpaceX troll  ;)

Also, if you invoke the name of either FH or SLS too much the 'Clipper might be jinxed to fly on Atlas V so watch yourself!

Seriously though guys, YES, Falcon Heavy could be an option.  Even a good option.  However don't turn this into a SpaceX fandom.  Besides, wait for the Outer Planet Assessment Group meeting due this month; perhaps in light of the launch the 'Clipper team might give a public update on their options.  Let them speak about the matter themselves.
« Last Edit: 02/09/2018 12:16 AM by redliox »
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Online Zed_Noir

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1622 on: 02/09/2018 01:17 AM »
....
A Europa mission will be able to chose from a variety of rockets, and any (especially new) rocket won't initially be trusted with a payload like a flagship right away.

So sending the Europa Clipper with the first SLS Block 1B is a good idea?  ::)

Don't be a SpaceX troll  ;)

Also, if you invoke the name of either FH or SLS too much the 'Clipper might be jinxed to fly on Atlas V so watch yourself!

Seriously though guys, YES, Falcon Heavy could be an option.  Even a good option.  However don't turn this into a SpaceX fandom.  Besides, wait for the Outer Planet Assessment Group meeting due this month; perhaps in light of the launch the 'Clipper team might give a public update on their options.  Let them speak about the matter themselves.

Only pointing out the obvious fallacy in your argument in your previous post.  ;)

Online redliox

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1623 on: 02/09/2018 02:38 AM »
Only pointing out the obvious fallacy in your argument in your previous post.  ;)

SPACE TROLL!  *starts firing the laser guns*
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Online redliox

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1624 on: 02/12/2018 07:20 PM »
Although the The Outer Planets Assessment Group (OPAG) isn't due to have its meeting for over another week, they released a draft of their collective goals: https://www.lpi.usra.edu/opag/goals-02-12-18.pdf

Ganymede, Europa, and Io are listed as individual science objectives, which bears relevance to the Europa Clipper.

Hopefully we hear even more news from the OPAG's meeting soon!
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Offline psloss

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1625 on: 02/14/2018 02:10 PM »
In the FY 2019 PBR details released sometime in the last 12 hours or so:
Quote
This budget enables a Europa Clipper launch readiness date in 2025. The Administration proposes to
launch the Clipper on a commercial launch vehicle, which would be several hundreds of millions of
dollars cheaper than an SLS flight and would not impact the availability of SLS rockets to support human
exploration. The Administration recognizes the benefits of using an SLS vehicle, including a shorter
cruise to Europa and a more direct trajectory (enabling a simpler thermal design and earlier science return
to inform future outer planet missions), but makes this proposal primarily due to budget considerations.

Reference:
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/fy19_nasa_budget_estimates.pdf

(PS-77, page 433 of the PDF)

Edit: a bit more two pages later (PS-79), after reiterating much of the same:
Quote
Consistent with Public Law 115-31, NASA is currently maintaining the capability to launch the Clipper on an SLS rocket.

PS-80 excerpt:
Quote
The profile assumes $432 million for a commercial launch vehicle, which may be reduced as commercial
offerings and pricing continue to evolve. It is not possible to launch the Clipper on an SLS earlier than
2024 without disrupting current NASA human exploration plans.

PS-83 excerpt:
Quote
If the Congress were to support the Administration’s position, NASA could move forward this year with securing a commercial launch vehicle.
« Last Edit: 02/14/2018 02:20 PM by psloss »

Offline Jim

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1626 on: 02/14/2018 04:06 PM »
In the FY 2019 PBR details released sometime in the last 12 hours or so:
Quote
This budget enables a Europa Clipper launch readiness date in 2025. The Administration proposes to
launch the Clipper on a commercial launch vehicle, which would be several hundreds of millions of
dollars cheaper than an SLS flight and would not impact the availability of SLS rockets to support human
exploration. The Administration recognizes the benefits of using an SLS vehicle, including a shorter
cruise to Europa and a more direct trajectory (enabling a simpler thermal design and earlier science return
to inform future outer planet missions), but makes this proposal primarily due to budget considerations.

Reference:
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/fy19_nasa_budget_estimates.pdf

(PS-77, page 433 of the PDF)


Yea

Offline Bubbinski

Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1627 on: 02/14/2018 05:26 PM »
Which commercial vehicles/variants would be capable of launching Europa Clipper?

-which versions of Atlas?
-would Vulcan be considered?
-Delta 4 Heavy?
- New Glenn?
- F9/FH?
-NGLV/Antares?
-Ariane 5/6?
I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

Offline Demidrol

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1628 on: 02/14/2018 05:40 PM »
Which commercial vehicles/variants would be capable of launching Europa Clipper?

-which versions of Atlas?
-would Vulcan be considered?
-Delta 4 Heavy?
- New Glenn?
- F9/FH?
-NGLV/Antares?
-Ariane 5/6?
Quote
Pappalardo said the mission is continuing to study the use of Delta 4 Heavy and Falcon Heavy as alternatives, but those would require the use of gravity assists that increase the mission’s flight time. The use of the Atlas 5 has been “closed off,” he said.
http://spacenews.com/europa-mission-planning-for-possible-budget-cuts-in-2017/
« Last Edit: 02/14/2018 05:41 PM by Demidrol »

Online zubenelgenubi

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1629 on: 02/14/2018 07:34 PM »
Quote
Pappalardo said the mission is continuing to study the use of Delta 4 Heavy and Falcon Heavy as alternatives, but those would require the use of gravity assists that increase the mission’s flight time. The use of the Atlas 5 has been “closed off,” he said.
http://spacenews.com/europa-mission-planning-for-possible-budget-cuts-in-2017/

Article was dated August 17, 2016.  A door closed 1.5 years ago or more could be re-opened?

Also, this article quote doesn't appear to preclude use of Vulcan/Centaur.
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Offline psloss

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1630 on: 02/14/2018 08:02 PM »
Attached a composite graphic from the detailed FY19 PBR release showing the PBR funding ramp for the mission targeting a 2025 launch vs. what would be required for a 2022 launch (numbers required to be provided by law) .

(This is likely to come up during the congressional oversight and/or budget process.)

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1631 on: 02/23/2018 06:13 PM »
I am surprised that this article has not been shared yet:

http://spacenews.com/nasa-budget-proposal-continues-debate-on-when-and-how-to-launch-europa-clipper/

Per the article they do not consider Falcon Heavy because they doubt that it will be certified for Class A missions at launch time.

Offline Star One

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1632 on: 02/23/2018 08:17 PM »
I am surprised that this article has not been shared yet:

http://spacenews.com/nasa-budget-proposal-continues-debate-on-when-and-how-to-launch-europa-clipper/

Per the article they do not consider Falcon Heavy because they doubt that it will be certified for Class A missions at launch time.

One wonders how SLS is supposed to be certified by then.

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1633 on: 02/23/2018 08:27 PM »
I am surprised that this article has not been shared yet:

http://spacenews.com/nasa-budget-proposal-continues-debate-on-when-and-how-to-launch-europa-clipper/

Per the article they do not consider Falcon Heavy because they doubt that it will be certified for Class A missions at launch time.

One wonders how SLS is supposed to be certified by then.

More like trying to spread the cost of an SLS flight with other directorates

Offline speedevil

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1634 on: 02/23/2018 08:29 PM »
I am surprised that this article has not been shared yet:

http://spacenews.com/nasa-budget-proposal-continues-debate-on-when-and-how-to-launch-europa-clipper/

Per the article they do not consider Falcon Heavy because they doubt that it will be certified for Class A missions at launch time.

I do not see the words 'Class A' in the article, and am I missing this, or has it changed.

Offline Star One

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1635 on: 02/23/2018 08:36 PM »
I am surprised that this article has not been shared yet:

http://spacenews.com/nasa-budget-proposal-continues-debate-on-when-and-how-to-launch-europa-clipper/

Per the article they do not consider Falcon Heavy because they doubt that it will be certified for Class A missions at launch time.

I do not see the words 'Class A' in the article, and am I missing this, or has it changed.

Isn’t there some odd situation where Europa Clipper is classed as a class b mission at the moment?

Online zubenelgenubi

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1636 on: 02/23/2018 10:17 PM »
re: Is Europa Clipper a "Class A" mission.

See p.10 of the attached document: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

A direct reference that Europa Clipper is Class A would be appreciated.
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Online zubenelgenubi

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1637 on: 02/23/2018 10:24 PM »
Re: use of Atlas V 551

Quote
Pappalardo said the mission is continuing to study the use of Delta 4 Heavy and Falcon Heavy as alternatives, but those would require the use of gravity assists that increase the mission’s flight time. The use of the Atlas 5 has been “closed off,” he said.
http://spacenews.com/europa-mission-planning-for-possible-budget-cuts-in-2017/

Article was dated August 17, 2016.  A door closed 1.5 years ago or more could be re-opened?

Also, this article quote doesn't appear to preclude use of Vulcan/Centaur.

NASA budget proposal continues debate on when and how to launch Europa Clipper, dated February 22, 2018
Quote
NASA has studied launching Europa Clipper on both SLS and on the most powerful variant of the United Launch Alliance Atlas 5. SLS offers the ability to fly a fast, direct route to Jupiter, with the spacecraft arriving at the planet less than three years after launch. The Atlas 5 would take more than six years to get Europa Clipper to Jupiter, and require flybys of both Venus and Earth to do so.

No mention in the article of Delta IV-Heavy as an option.
« Last Edit: 03/09/2018 10:47 PM by zubenelgenubi »
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Offline UltraViolet9

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1638 on: 02/24/2018 05:52 AM »
Isn’t there some odd situation where Europa Clipper is classed as a class b mission at the moment?

You're thinking of the controversial Class B designation for WFIRST:

Quote
The independent review also raised questions about the risk classification of the mission. WFIRST is considered a “Class B” risk mission by NASA, which means it is high priority but only medium to high cost and with a medium mission lifetime. That is less stringent than the Class A assignments usually given to “strategically important missions with comparable levels of investment and risks,” Zurbuchen wrote.

The review, the memo noted, suggested NASA add more engineering development and spare hardware, as well as additional analysis, “to provide a more robust program” than its existing Class B risk classification.

http://spacenews.com/nasa-seeks-cost-cutting-changes-in-design-of-wfirst-mission/

Offline Star One

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1639 on: 02/24/2018 08:30 AM »
Isn’t there some odd situation where Europa Clipper is classed as a class b mission at the moment?

You're thinking of the controversial Class B designation for WFIRST:

Quote
The independent review also raised questions about the risk classification of the mission. WFIRST is considered a “Class B” risk mission by NASA, which means it is high priority but only medium to high cost and with a medium mission lifetime. That is less stringent than the Class A assignments usually given to “strategically important missions with comparable levels of investment and risks,” Zurbuchen wrote.

The review, the memo noted, suggested NASA add more engineering development and spare hardware, as well as additional analysis, “to provide a more robust program” than its existing Class B risk classification.

http://spacenews.com/nasa-seeks-cost-cutting-changes-in-design-of-wfirst-mission/

Thanks. After I posted the above I started thinking it might be another mission, but couldn’t think which one it was.