Author Topic: Proposed Europa Missions  (Read 438383 times)

Offline CitabriaFlyer

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1620 on: 02/07/2018 01:25 PM »
And since 39A had cryo capability for J2 and SSME why not F9H/Centaur/EC.  Certainly I would think the option to integrate those two vehicles could be done for less expense than the SLS black hole.  Moderators, please move this thread if it belongs in another category but my thoughts were primarily re the EC mission.

Offline CitabriaFlyer

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1621 on: 02/07/2018 02:25 PM »
Might be more difficult than I thought.  F9H fairing is 43 feet tall.  Both Centaur and DCSS would both occupy most of that length leaving little room for spacecraft.  Extended fairing or placing the 3rd cryo stage between stage 2 and fairing would probably cause more engineering work than SpaceX cares to expend on the F9 at this point.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1622 on: 02/08/2018 01:28 AM »
Might be more difficult than I thought.  F9H fairing is 43 feet tall.  Both Centaur and DCSS would both occupy most of that length leaving little room for spacecraft.  Extended fairing or placing the 3rd cryo stage between stage 2 and fairing would probably cause more engineering work than SpaceX cares to expend on the F9 at this point.

Just use the RUAG 26.5m height PLF instead of the 13.1m height SX PLF.

There is issues raised by @jim about the lack of vertical payload integration and access to the payload while the LV is vertical with the FH on other threads.

Also there might not be Hydrogen handling GSE available at LC-39A right now.

Offline UltraViolet9

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1623 on: 02/08/2018 02:06 AM »
Might be more difficult than I thought.  F9H fairing is 43 feet tall.  Both Centaur and DCSS would both occupy most of that length leaving little room for spacecraft.  Extended fairing or placing the 3rd cryo stage between stage 2 and fairing would probably cause more engineering work than SpaceX cares to expend on the F9 at this point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor_prototype_upper-stage_engine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor_(rocket_engine_family)

Offline redliox

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1624 on: 02/08/2018 12:30 PM »
In the afterglow of yesterday's F9H flight I think it is worth spending some time on launch options again.  From a taxpayer's standpoint I am not sure I want to keep SLS going just for this mission.  I have a much higher degree of confidence that BFR will obviate the rationale by 2030.  We have waited half a century for sustainable interplanetary transport I have no problem cancelling SLS and waiting at most an extra 5 years to get into cis lunar space.

Realize F9H stage 2 not optimized for beyond GTO but can F9H do this mission with only Earth flybys?

I asked this question before, and the answer was yes.  A single Earth flyby coupled with the FH would yield a trajectory akin to what Juno went through.  Don't turn this into a SpaceX thread though.  A Europa mission will be able to chose from a variety of rockets, and any (especially new) rocket won't initially be trusted with a payload like a flagship right away.
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Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1625 on: 02/08/2018 09:12 PM »
....
A Europa mission will be able to chose from a variety of rockets, and any (especially new) rocket won't initially be trusted with a payload like a flagship right away.

So sending the Europa Clipper with the first SLS Block 1B is a good idea?  ::)

Offline redliox

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1626 on: 02/09/2018 12:15 AM »
....
A Europa mission will be able to chose from a variety of rockets, and any (especially new) rocket won't initially be trusted with a payload like a flagship right away.

So sending the Europa Clipper with the first SLS Block 1B is a good idea?  ::)

Don't be a SpaceX troll  ;)

Also, if you invoke the name of either FH or SLS too much the 'Clipper might be jinxed to fly on Atlas V so watch yourself!

Seriously though guys, YES, Falcon Heavy could be an option.  Even a good option.  However don't turn this into a SpaceX fandom.  Besides, wait for the Outer Planet Assessment Group meeting due this month; perhaps in light of the launch the 'Clipper team might give a public update on their options.  Let them speak about the matter themselves.
« Last Edit: 02/09/2018 12:16 AM by redliox »
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Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1627 on: 02/09/2018 01:17 AM »
....
A Europa mission will be able to chose from a variety of rockets, and any (especially new) rocket won't initially be trusted with a payload like a flagship right away.

So sending the Europa Clipper with the first SLS Block 1B is a good idea?  ::)

Don't be a SpaceX troll  ;)

Also, if you invoke the name of either FH or SLS too much the 'Clipper might be jinxed to fly on Atlas V so watch yourself!

Seriously though guys, YES, Falcon Heavy could be an option.  Even a good option.  However don't turn this into a SpaceX fandom.  Besides, wait for the Outer Planet Assessment Group meeting due this month; perhaps in light of the launch the 'Clipper team might give a public update on their options.  Let them speak about the matter themselves.

Only pointing out the obvious fallacy in your argument in your previous post.  ;)

Offline redliox

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1628 on: 02/09/2018 02:38 AM »
Only pointing out the obvious fallacy in your argument in your previous post.  ;)

SPACE TROLL!  *starts firing the laser guns*
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Offline redliox

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1629 on: 02/12/2018 07:20 PM »
Although the The Outer Planets Assessment Group (OPAG) isn't due to have its meeting for over another week, they released a draft of their collective goals: https://www.lpi.usra.edu/opag/goals-02-12-18.pdf

Ganymede, Europa, and Io are listed as individual science objectives, which bears relevance to the Europa Clipper.

Hopefully we hear even more news from the OPAG's meeting soon!
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Offline psloss

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1630 on: 02/14/2018 02:10 PM »
In the FY 2019 PBR details released sometime in the last 12 hours or so:
Quote
This budget enables a Europa Clipper launch readiness date in 2025. The Administration proposes to
launch the Clipper on a commercial launch vehicle, which would be several hundreds of millions of
dollars cheaper than an SLS flight and would not impact the availability of SLS rockets to support human
exploration. The Administration recognizes the benefits of using an SLS vehicle, including a shorter
cruise to Europa and a more direct trajectory (enabling a simpler thermal design and earlier science return
to inform future outer planet missions), but makes this proposal primarily due to budget considerations.

Reference:
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/fy19_nasa_budget_estimates.pdf

(PS-77, page 433 of the PDF)

Edit: a bit more two pages later (PS-79), after reiterating much of the same:
Quote
Consistent with Public Law 115-31, NASA is currently maintaining the capability to launch the Clipper on an SLS rocket.

PS-80 excerpt:
Quote
The profile assumes $432 million for a commercial launch vehicle, which may be reduced as commercial
offerings and pricing continue to evolve. It is not possible to launch the Clipper on an SLS earlier than
2024 without disrupting current NASA human exploration plans.

PS-83 excerpt:
Quote
If the Congress were to support the Administration’s position, NASA could move forward this year with securing a commercial launch vehicle.
« Last Edit: 02/14/2018 02:20 PM by psloss »

Offline Jim

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1631 on: 02/14/2018 04:06 PM »
In the FY 2019 PBR details released sometime in the last 12 hours or so:
Quote
This budget enables a Europa Clipper launch readiness date in 2025. The Administration proposes to
launch the Clipper on a commercial launch vehicle, which would be several hundreds of millions of
dollars cheaper than an SLS flight and would not impact the availability of SLS rockets to support human
exploration. The Administration recognizes the benefits of using an SLS vehicle, including a shorter
cruise to Europa and a more direct trajectory (enabling a simpler thermal design and earlier science return
to inform future outer planet missions), but makes this proposal primarily due to budget considerations.

Reference:
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/fy19_nasa_budget_estimates.pdf

(PS-77, page 433 of the PDF)


Yea

Offline Bubbinski

Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1632 on: 02/14/2018 05:26 PM »
Which commercial vehicles/variants would be capable of launching Europa Clipper?

-which versions of Atlas?
-would Vulcan be considered?
-Delta 4 Heavy?
- New Glenn?
- F9/FH?
-NGLV/Antares?
-Ariane 5/6?
I'll even excitedly look forward to "flags and footprints" and suborbital missions. Just fly...somewhere.

Online Demidrol

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1633 on: 02/14/2018 05:40 PM »
Which commercial vehicles/variants would be capable of launching Europa Clipper?

-which versions of Atlas?
-would Vulcan be considered?
-Delta 4 Heavy?
- New Glenn?
- F9/FH?
-NGLV/Antares?
-Ariane 5/6?
Quote
Pappalardo said the mission is continuing to study the use of Delta 4 Heavy and Falcon Heavy as alternatives, but those would require the use of gravity assists that increase the mission’s flight time. The use of the Atlas 5 has been “closed off,” he said.
http://spacenews.com/europa-mission-planning-for-possible-budget-cuts-in-2017/
« Last Edit: 02/14/2018 05:41 PM by Demidrol »

Offline zubenelgenubi

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1634 on: 02/14/2018 07:34 PM »
Quote
Pappalardo said the mission is continuing to study the use of Delta 4 Heavy and Falcon Heavy as alternatives, but those would require the use of gravity assists that increase the mission’s flight time. The use of the Atlas 5 has been “closed off,” he said.
http://spacenews.com/europa-mission-planning-for-possible-budget-cuts-in-2017/

Article was dated August 17, 2016.  A door closed 1.5 years ago or more could be re-opened?

Also, this article quote doesn't appear to preclude use of Vulcan/Centaur.
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Offline psloss

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1635 on: 02/14/2018 08:02 PM »
Attached a composite graphic from the detailed FY19 PBR release showing the PBR funding ramp for the mission targeting a 2025 launch vs. what would be required for a 2022 launch (numbers required to be provided by law) .

(This is likely to come up during the congressional oversight and/or budget process.)

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1636 on: 02/23/2018 06:13 PM »
I am surprised that this article has not been shared yet:

http://spacenews.com/nasa-budget-proposal-continues-debate-on-when-and-how-to-launch-europa-clipper/

Per the article they do not consider Falcon Heavy because they doubt that it will be certified for Class A missions at launch time.

Offline Star One

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1637 on: 02/23/2018 08:17 PM »
I am surprised that this article has not been shared yet:

http://spacenews.com/nasa-budget-proposal-continues-debate-on-when-and-how-to-launch-europa-clipper/

Per the article they do not consider Falcon Heavy because they doubt that it will be certified for Class A missions at launch time.

One wonders how SLS is supposed to be certified by then.

Offline AegeanBlue

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1638 on: 02/23/2018 08:27 PM »
I am surprised that this article has not been shared yet:

http://spacenews.com/nasa-budget-proposal-continues-debate-on-when-and-how-to-launch-europa-clipper/

Per the article they do not consider Falcon Heavy because they doubt that it will be certified for Class A missions at launch time.

One wonders how SLS is supposed to be certified by then.

More like trying to spread the cost of an SLS flight with other directorates

Offline speedevil

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Re: Proposed Europa Missions
« Reply #1639 on: 02/23/2018 08:29 PM »
I am surprised that this article has not been shared yet:

http://spacenews.com/nasa-budget-proposal-continues-debate-on-when-and-how-to-launch-europa-clipper/

Per the article they do not consider Falcon Heavy because they doubt that it will be certified for Class A missions at launch time.

I do not see the words 'Class A' in the article, and am I missing this, or has it changed.