Author Topic: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3  (Read 150285 times)

Online Chris Bergin

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2012/01/dream-chaser-impressive-progress-ahead-ccdev-3/

There will be more articles to come on this as the SNC people are very friendly towards the site.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #1 on: 01/27/2012 12:22 AM »
Exciting article Chris... SNC can count many of us that are friendly toward them as well. Go Dream Chaser! :)
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Offline TomH

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #2 on: 01/27/2012 12:55 AM »
It's surely my favorite.  A water capsule landing from Mars return I understand. Going back to water capsule landing from LEO: very regressive. You have all the recovery equipment, personnel, and cost, not to mention getting saline all over the ship and possibly in the electronics of a supposedly reusable vehicle (one good wave splashes in and that ship is washed up-who's going to ride in that thing again?). Dissimilar redundancy, up to 1K mi. cross range, ability to land on almost any runway. And as far as return to launch site, I just don't see a retrorocket landing Dragon or Blue Origin craft having near the reliability this craft should have.

Offline RocketJack

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #3 on: 01/27/2012 01:04 AM »
Enormous cost to go. SNC has to invest for four years (at best) with no crewed orbital flights. If Comm Crew was fully funded this would still be tough, but the reduction in funding is going to cause SNC some problems.

Offline STS Tony

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #4 on: 01/27/2012 02:02 AM »
Dream Chaser is my fav too. All hail the baby orbiter!

Offline martin hegedus

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #5 on: 01/27/2012 02:46 AM »
I sure am looking forward to see this launch!

In general, this type of launch configuration is risky.  There are sensitivities to flow separation points and unsteadiness.  Things which a WT can not model due to Re and Mach and CFD is totally unreliable for.  Points which previous projects I have had the joy to be involved in, such as HXLV, have driven home.

So it will be a first!  Dyna-Soar can not really be used as a model for it.  Definitely very researchy.  I like it.  It will be interesting to see how well their models match up with flight.

Offline shuttlefan

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #6 on: 01/27/2012 03:00 AM »
So every launch of an Atlas 5 then sort of serves as a test flight for the Dreamchaser booster.

Online BrightLight

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #7 on: 01/27/2012 03:05 AM »
I sure am looking forward to see this launch!

In general, this type of launch configuration is risky.  There are sensitivities to flow separation points and unsteadiness.  Things which a WT can not model due to Re and Mach and CFD is totally unreliable for.  Points which previous projects I have had the joy to be involved in, such as HXLV, have driven home.

So it will be a first!  Dyna-Soar can not really be used as a model for it.  Definitely very researchy.  I like it.  It will be interesting to see how well their models match up with flight.

Didn't ASSET fly un-shrouded - or am I missing the point?

Offline martin hegedus

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #8 on: 01/27/2012 03:07 AM »
So every launch of an Atlas 5 then sort of serves as a test flight for the Dreamchaser booster.

Oh, not at all, unless there is a Dream Chaser on top.  Since there is uncertainty about the separation points (aerodynamic not hardware) the lift the Dream Chaser generates will be uncertain.  Plus, there is the added topic of aerodynamic instabilities (buffet/flutter).

Offline Dave Huntsman

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #9 on: 01/27/2012 03:11 AM »
Going forward, I'm concerned as to whether Dream Chaser will get a 'fair hearing' for CCDEV-3. (And I say that with no accusation and no malice). All the comments coming from NASA have implied "1 or 2" concepts will likely be selected.  The most mature concept is SpaceX's Dragon and Falcon, and unless they flat-out screw up, it would not be surprising if they were selected.

But,   I'm concerned that there might be 'pressure' - from within NASA, by the old guard, and also from without - to ensure that an 'experienced' company (code word for Boeing) is also selected, regardless of what is in the nation's' long-term interest.  If the above conjecture is true, it would leave possibly the most innovative proposal - and one that has been worked on much longer than Boeing's - ie SNC's, out. And that would be unfortunate.
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Online QuantumG

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #10 on: 01/27/2012 03:14 AM »
+1 Dave. Down select == picking winners and losers, and that's been the inevitable result of CCDev from the beginning.
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Offline martin hegedus

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #11 on: 01/27/2012 03:27 AM »

Didn't ASSET fly un-shrouded - or am I missing the point?

In regards to this, the ASSET is much more predictable.  From my point of view, the interesting point is where the aerodynamic separation points are.  I can tell you where they are for the ASSET just by looking at it.  I can't for the Dream Chaser.  What makes it difficult, for me, is the smooth body, the boattail configuration (i.e. increase pressure gradient past the canopy), and the interaction with the booster and adapter (again the booster provides an adverse pressure gradient)  The adverse pressure gradient induces separation.  The separation point determines lift.

Anyway, it's interesting and cool.

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #12 on: 01/27/2012 03:39 AM »
Going forward, I'm concerned as to whether Dream Chaser will get a 'fair hearing' for CCDEV-3. (And I say that with no accusation and no malice). All the comments coming from NASA have implied "1 or 2" concepts will likely be selected.  The most mature concept is SpaceX's Dragon and Falcon, and unless they flat-out screw up, it would not be surprising if they were selected.

But,   I'm concerned that there might be 'pressure' - from within NASA, by the old guard, and also from without - to ensure that an 'experienced' company (code word for Boeing) is also selected, regardless of what is in the nation's' long-term interest.  If the above conjecture is true, it would leave possibly the most innovative proposal - and one that has been worked on much longer than Boeing's - ie SNC's, out. And that would be unfortunate.
The "old Guard" issue - is an issue and Boeing has a way of getting into things by hook or crook (r.e. they have really good lobbyists).  On the other hand, SpaceX will go it alone regardless of government funding - or so Elon  says, so why put money into the Falcon/Dragon when it will be done regardless. Clearly I am biased towards the lifting body, hope springs eternal!

Offline RocketmanUS

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #13 on: 01/27/2012 04:08 AM »
Nice read

Sure will like the day when Dream Chaser ( mini shuttle ) flys.

It is a step in the right direction, crew and cargo to LEO. Having a fly back runway landing shuttle and also capsules is a good mix to have ( flexible future option ).

Once the Dream Chaser and CST-100 are flying then it would be good to see a team make a launcher for them that is low cost and reusable.

If they had more money could they get it flying for ISS crew rotation any sooner than 2016?

Offline imcub

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #14 on: 01/27/2012 04:12 AM »
Going forward, I'm concerned as to whether Dream Chaser will get a 'fair hearing' for CCDEV-3. (And I say that with no accusation and no malice). All the comments coming from NASA have implied "1 or 2" concepts will likely be selected.  The most mature concept is SpaceX's Dragon and Falcon, and unless they flat-out screw up, it would not be surprising if they were selected.

But,   I'm concerned that there might be 'pressure' - from within NASA, by the old guard, and also from without - to ensure that an 'experienced' company (code word for Boeing) is also selected, regardless of what is in the nation's' long-term interest.  If the above conjecture is true, it would leave possibly the most innovative proposal - and one that has been worked on much longer than Boeing's - ie SNC's, out. And that would be unfortunate.
The "old Guard" issue - is an issue and Boeing has a way of getting into things by hook or crook (r.e. they have really good lobbyists).  On the other hand, SpaceX will go it alone regardless of government funding - or so Elon  says, so why put money into the Falcon/Dragon when it will be done regardless. Clearly I am biased towards the lifting body, hope springs eternal!

... except when it came to DHV (or was it Atlas V) vs. Ares I ...

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #15 on: 01/27/2012 08:34 AM »
I sure am looking forward to see this launch!

So it will be a first!  Dyna-Soar can not really be used as a model for it.  Definitely very researchy.  I like it.  It will be interesting to see how well their models match up with flight.

Do you mean a lifting body from orbit or launching without a shroud.

Others have mentioned ASSET but I was also going to mention PRIME as a lifting body. Likewise the HL-20 was based on photos of the sea recovery of the UUSR Spiral design from orbit.

So several plane and lifting body designs *have* been recovered from orbit but I'm not which (if any) were launched without a shroud, which would be new territory.

While you might be excited by the trip into the unknown it is *precisely* that unpredictability in such matters (and the potentially disastrous effect on heating) that make the people who fund projects *very* cautious. It's doubtful this project would have happened without SN being a private company and the long test history of the baseline HL20 design.

I'll note it's cross range is impressive. It's amazing what you can get if you relax the abort-once-around restriction and just say land-on-CONUS. It may never be used but that *flexibility* could be a major selling point, especially if they've designed it to be light on specialist resources following an emergency landing.
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Offline martin hegedus

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #16 on: 01/27/2012 08:52 AM »

Do you mean a lifting body from orbit or launching without a shroud.

Others have mentioned ASSET but I was also going to mention PRIME as a lifting body. Likewise the HL-20 was based on photos of the sea recovery of the UUSR Spiral design from orbit.

So several plane and lifting body designs *have* been recovered from orbit but I'm not which (if any) were launched without a shroud, which would be new territory.

While you might be excited by the trip into the unknown it is *precisely* that unpredictability in such matters (and the potentially disastrous effect on heating) that make the people who fund projects *very* cautious. It's doubtful this project would have happened without SN being a private company and the long test history of the baseline HL20 design.

I'll note it's cross range is impressive. It's amazing what you can get if you relax the abort-once-around restriction and just say land-on-CONUS. It may never be used but that *flexibility* could be a major selling point, especially if they've designed it to be light on specialist resources following an emergency landing.

My comment was in regard to launching without a shroud.

Offline spectre9

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #17 on: 01/27/2012 10:54 AM »
I don't think Dreamchaser will launch uncovered.

It just looks good in the pics.

I suspect some sort of arrowhead fairing that slopes around the wings.

Offline manboy

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #18 on: 01/27/2012 11:10 AM »
I don't think Dreamchaser will launch uncovered.

It just looks good in the pics.

I suspect some sort of arrowhead fairing that slopes around the wings.
I believe Mark Sirangelo confirmed that they plan to launch it without a fairing.
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Offline Davinator

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Re: Dream Chaser making impressive progress ahead of CCDev-3
« Reply #19 on: 01/27/2012 11:22 AM »
On the great DCSS L2 section, the notes confirm no fairing. Some epic new videos on there.

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