Author Topic: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.  (Read 33893 times)

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #20 on: 01/20/2012 06:50 pm »
What are the flight readiness of Paragon Space Development Corporation's plug-and-play environmental control and life support system (ECLSS) Air Revitalization System (ARS)?  Also the flight readiness of the ECLSS SpaceX is developing for the Dragon?

Online cuddihy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #21 on: 01/20/2012 08:47 pm »
Not to mention, what would a few people and assorted stuff not normally carried do to the CG and behavior of the vehicle?

Surely the first couple of COTS/CRS flights will resolve this.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #22 on: 01/20/2012 09:11 pm »
just a question:;
If the Dragon CRS is berthed with the ISS , and an emergency happens on board,  (:
is it technically possible to "jump"  into the Dragon, unberth it  and return to earth ??
(in current  or slightly modified configuration)
what about  oxygen Supply , Air Pressure , Weight limitation,  comm , control , etc.
how many astronauts will fit inside ?



 

No.

Dragon is specifically undesigned for emergency egress capability, in the sense that the differences between the cargo and crew vehicles are mostly in the areas described above.

Offline Norm38

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #23 on: 01/20/2012 09:49 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?
It seems natural for a cargo Dragon to have some lifeboat capability since it does reenter and land.  So I'd expect the manned flight systems to start being installed on cargo versions in the order they're developed, to test it all out as they go.

For example, if the cargo version retained air handling equipment, it would make the space more useable while docked and give the hardware more flight time.  And at the current scale of electronics, why not install the flight controls and comms early, and test them during the cargo flights?

Unless the mass penalty is prohibitive, manned and cargo should be as common as possible.  Cargo flights thus also become man-rating test flights.

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #24 on: 01/20/2012 09:52 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?
It seems natural for a cargo Dragon to have some lifeboat capability since it does reenter and land.  So I'd expect the manned flight systems to start being installed on cargo versions in the order they're developed, to test it all out as they go.

For example, if the cargo version retained air handling equipment, it would make the space more useable while docked and give the hardware more flight time.  And at the current scale of electronics, why not install the flight controls and comms early, and test them during the cargo flights?

Unless the mass penalty is prohibitive, manned and cargo should be as common as possible.  Cargo flights thus also become man-rating test flights.

No, because the systems would take up volume which is more critical than mass

Offline Danderman

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #25 on: 01/20/2012 09:58 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?

Let me introduce you to two spacecraft named "Soyuz" and "Progress".


Offline Lars_J

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #26 on: 01/20/2012 10:03 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?

Let me introduce you to two spacecraft named "Soyuz" and "Progress".

I'm not sure what your point is. Progress/Soyuz is not a perfect analogy. The plan is certainly to have Cargo/Crew Dragons be more similar systems than Soyuz/Progress.

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #27 on: 01/20/2012 10:15 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?

Let me introduce you to two spacecraft named "Soyuz" and "Progress".

I'm not sure what your point is. Progress/Soyuz is not a perfect analogy. The plan is certainly to have Cargo/Crew Dragons be more similar systems than Soyuz/Progress.

I would say they are

Online cuddihy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #28 on: 01/20/2012 11:31 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?
It seems natural for a cargo Dragon to have some lifeboat capability since it does reenter and land.  So I'd expect the manned flight systems to start being installed on cargo versions in the order they're developed, to test it all out as they go.

For example, if the cargo version retained air handling equipment, it would make the space more useable while docked and give the hardware more flight time.  And at the current scale of electronics, why not install the flight controls and comms early, and test them during the cargo flights?

Unless the mass penalty is prohibitive, manned and cargo should be as common as possible.  Cargo flights thus also become man-rating test flights.

No, because the systems would take up volume which is more critical than mass

No, it doesn't make sense to have a permanent ECLSS taking up room in every cargo dragon. But that's not the requirement if you're going to use a cargo dragon as an escape capsule.

It really might make sense to have a one-time  "go-kit" containing emergency escape life support systems brought to the station. It need only be brought up as often as the lifetime of the contents (e.g. the safe lifetime of the chlorate O2 candle). For instance, if your kit contained:
-3 canvas escape seats that mount in CRS Dragon
-1-2 small O2 candles +  diffuser
-LiO2 canister/fan system

That kind of  "emergency one-time short term use" equipment could be brought up and left, and is cheaper than an additional soyuz, and might enable emergency lifeboat-type use.

Still requires a pressure control mod (if it doesn't already exist) to the Dragon. Thermal upgrade if the on-board isn't already good enough, although I suspect it would be.

*update* You could also use some Navy-style OBAs for an emergency use. They perform both functions. We've used them for years in the Navy, the only reason they're being phased out is cost and operability (new cartidges, disposal of old ones as HAZMAT, and the operations issue of people having the right numbers in the right places and canisters going bad, etc).

A more obscure but real issue is the fact that the training (dead, orange in color) cartridges and real(live, green in color) cartridges can be mixed up in a real fire due to vision obscured in a real event, as well as the fact that people often do as they're trained (grab the training cartridge instead of the real one), which means pretty soon they pass out in the fire zone from lack of oxygen and have to be pulled out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_Breathing_Apparatus
« Last Edit: 01/20/2012 11:52 pm by cuddihy »

Offline Danderman

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #29 on: 01/20/2012 11:43 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?

Let me introduce you to two spacecraft named "Soyuz" and "Progress".

I'm not sure what your point is. Progress/Soyuz is not a perfect analogy. The plan is certainly to have Cargo/Crew Dragons be more similar systems than Soyuz/Progress.

The point is that cargo vehicles based on crew vehicles are optimized to carry cargo.  his optimization process means that systems that could be used to support crew are often deleted.

« Last Edit: 01/20/2012 11:44 pm by Danderman »

Online cuddihy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #30 on: 01/20/2012 11:47 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?

Let me introduce you to two spacecraft named "Soyuz" and "Progress".

I'm not sure what your point is. Progress/Soyuz is not a perfect analogy. The plan is certainly to have Cargo/Crew Dragons be more similar systems than Soyuz/Progress.

The point is that cargo vehicles based on crew vehicles are optimized to carry cargo.  This optimization process means that systems that could be used to support crew are often deleted.


So? Most of mass required for crew return is already included in Dragon. Crew/Cargo dragon are both closer to Soyuz than Soyuz is to Progress on  the basis of systems included/not included.

Number one and two is obviously heat shield and parachutes.

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #31 on: 01/21/2012 01:37 am »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?
It seems natural for a cargo Dragon to have some lifeboat capability since it does reenter and land.  So I'd expect the manned flight systems to start being installed on cargo versions in the order they're developed, to test it all out as they go.

For example, if the cargo version retained air handling equipment, it would make the space more useable while docked and give the hardware more flight time.  And at the current scale of electronics, why not install the flight controls and comms early, and test them during the cargo flights?

Unless the mass penalty is prohibitive, manned and cargo should be as common as possible.  Cargo flights thus also become man-rating test flights.

No, because the systems would take up volume which is more critical than mass

No, it doesn't make sense to have a permanent ECLSS taking up room in every cargo dragon. But that's not the requirement if you're going to use a cargo dragon as an escape capsule.

It really might make sense to have a one-time  "go-kit" containing emergency escape life support systems brought to the station. It need only be brought up as often as the lifetime of the contents (e.g. the safe lifetime of the chlorate O2 candle). For instance, if your kit contained:
-3 canvas escape seats that mount in CRS Dragon
-1-2 small O2 candles +  diffuser
-LiO2 canister/fan system

That kind of  "emergency one-time short term use" equipment could be brought up and left, and is cheaper than an additional soyuz, and might enable emergency lifeboat-type use.

Still requires a pressure control mod (if it doesn't already exist) to the Dragon. Thermal upgrade if the on-board isn't already good enough, although I suspect it would be.

*update* You could also use some Navy-style OBAs for an emergency use. They perform both functions. We've used them for years in the Navy, the only reason they're being phased out is cost and operability (new cartidges, disposal of old ones as HAZMAT, and the operations issue of people having the right numbers in the right places and canisters going bad, etc).

A more obscure but real issue is the fact that the training (dead, orange in color) cartridges and real(live, green in color) cartridges can be mixed up in a real fire due to vision obscured in a real event, as well as the fact that people often do as they're trained (grab the training cartridge instead of the real one), which means pretty soon they pass out in the fire zone from lack of oxygen and have to be pulled out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_Breathing_Apparatus


Still not viable because of the lack of volume for crew

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #32 on: 01/21/2012 01:40 am »
So? Most of mass required for crew return is already included in Dragon. Crew/Cargo dragon are both closer to Soyuz than Soyuz is to Progress on  the basis of systems included/not included.

Number one and two is obviously heat shield and parachutes.

Is there a citation for that or are you just expressing your opinion? I ask because I've been trying to get some information out of SpaceX on Dragon mass breakdown for years now and they haven't released a sausage to my knowledge.
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Offline M_Puckett

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #33 on: 01/21/2012 01:50 am »
Fear not!  Jaws will stay behind and un-berth the Dragon!

Online cuddihy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #34 on: 01/21/2012 03:09 am »

No, it doesn't make sense to have a permanent ECLSS taking up room in every cargo dragon. But that's not the requirement if you're going to use a cargo dragon as an escape capsule.

It really might make sense to have a one-time  "go-kit" containing emergency escape life support systems brought to the station. It need only be brought up as often as the lifetime of the contents (e.g. the safe lifetime of the chlorate O2 candle). For instance, if your kit contained:
-3 canvas escape seats that mount in CRS Dragon
-1-2 small O2 candles +  diffuser
-LiO2 canister/fan system

That kind of  "emergency one-time short term use" equipment could be brought up and left, and is cheaper than an additional soyuz, and might enable emergency lifeboat-type use.

Still requires a pressure control mod (if it doesn't already exist) to the Dragon. Thermal upgrade if the on-board isn't already good enough, although I suspect it would be.

*update* You could also use some Navy-style OBAs for an emergency use. They perform both functions. We've used them for years in the Navy, the only reason they're being phased out is cost and operability (new cartidges, disposal of old ones as HAZMAT, and the operations issue of people having the right numbers in the right places and canisters going bad, etc).

A more obscure but real issue is the fact that the training (dead, orange in color) cartridges and real(live, green in color) cartridges can be mixed up in a real fire due to vision obscured in a real event, as well as the fact that people often do as they're trained (grab the training cartridge instead of the real one), which means pretty soon they pass out in the fire zone from lack of oxygen and have to be pulled out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_Breathing_Apparatus


Still not viable because of the lack of volume for crew

Are you saying lack of air volume or physical space for the crew? And what size crew are you talking about? I think we can agree that Dragon will never launch with 7 crew but 3 for return?

Offline Patchouli

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #35 on: 01/21/2012 03:14 am »
You probably could if there was no other choice such as if one of the Soyuz vehicles were damaged.
But there probably is no life support at least no scrubbers minimal thermo control etc.
To bring someone back alive would probably take some Apollo 13 type Macgyvering and probably not unberthing until ISS is over an acceptable landing site.
But the only people who probably know for sure if a CRS Dragon could be rigged for crew return and what it would take are probably those at Spacex.

I'm including the possibility of modifying and launching a new Dragon vs riding the one presently berthed at ISS.

Unless the Station is badly damaged ie loss of attitude control or multiple depressurized modules it probably would be safer to wait for a better equipped vehicle to be sent up.
Here's a view of the inside of the Demo flight 2 vehicle to give an idea how much internal space there is.


« Last Edit: 01/21/2012 03:25 am by Patchouli »

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #36 on: 01/21/2012 03:35 am »
 If you didn't need an LAS and life support for the longer uphill trip, and the SSRMS was operational, modifying a cargo Dragon to launch for a partial evacuation shouldn't be too hard. Say, if one of the Soyuz craft had a serious problem and couldn't be replaced for a while. Not something you'd do if you could avoid it, but an option if you needed one.
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #37 on: 01/21/2012 03:38 am »
If you didn't need an LAS and life support for the longer uphill trip, and the SSRMS was operational, modifying a cargo Dragon to launch for a partial evacuation shouldn't be too hard. Say, if one of the Soyuz craft had a serious problem and couldn't be replaced for a while. Not something you'd do if you could avoid it, but an option if you needed one.
A very desperate option.
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Offline manboy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case on an emergency.
« Reply #38 on: 01/21/2012 05:41 am »

No (in one word)

1.  it can not unberth itself
2.  it has no life support system (O2 supply, CO2 removal, heat removal, H2O removal, etc)
3. it has no place for a human to sit or stand (it is configured for holding logistics), except for the center section.
3.There are no controls or comm

The technical challenge is obvious.
but what is needed technically to solve it ?
the Soyuz  has solution to all those issues .
the Dragon as a craft designed  as "human  rated" can try to solve these issues
also.  At least it can land correctly , as the cheese cake test proved.
 :)
The Soyuz is a manned spacecraft. The Dragon that will be flying cargo missions is not "human rated" in the same sense as Soyuz.

I guess if we're just talking hypotheticals here, what exactly is required on station to be done for berthing Dragon (that cannot be done remotely from the ground)?  Would R2 be able to tackle those?

Has R2 even done one thing more than PR stuff yet?
They've done intial movement tests for it but its not like it's designed to work Canadarm.

1) No life-support;

2) No seats;

3) Too small for 6 x PLSS packs (even if they had six EVA suits, which they don't)

So, no chance.
Not to mention those EVA suits were never to meant to be used for launch and re-entry (lots of hard parts).

I don't think seats are a problem. The cargo is usually held by straps, they could strap themselves to the floor.

How many hours does it take from detach to splashdown?
Also, is the cargo version sea impact speed low enough for humans to survive?
There isn't enough room for six people on the same level. The crew version will have crew couches to soften the impact.

What are the flight readiness of Paragon Space Development Corporation's plug-and-play environmental control and life support system (ECLSS) Air Revitalization System (ARS)?  Also the flight readiness of the ECLSS SpaceX is developing for the Dragon?
Nowhere as ready and much more risky than launching a new Soyuz.
« Last Edit: 01/21/2012 06:02 am by manboy »
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Offline Jorge

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #39 on: 01/21/2012 05:49 am »
I guess if we're just talking hypotheticals here, what exactly is required on station to be done for berthing Dragon (that cannot be done remotely from the ground)?

Strictly speaking, berthing and unberthing can be done remotely from the ground.

Capture and release, however, cannot be done remotely, and there are no plans to add such capability.

Quote
  Would R2 be able to tackle those?

No.
« Last Edit: 01/21/2012 05:50 am by Jorge »
JRF

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