Author Topic: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.  (Read 33897 times)

Offline rubtest

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just a question:;
If the Dragon CRS is berthed with the ISS , and an emergency happens on board,  (:
is it technically possible to "jump"  into the Dragon, unberth it  and return to earth ??
(in current  or slightly modified configuration)
what about  oxygen Supply , Air Pressure , Weight limitation,  comm , control , etc.
how many astronauts will fit inside ?



 
« Last Edit: 01/20/2012 03:12 pm by rubtest »

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case on an emergency.
« Reply #1 on: 01/20/2012 03:12 pm »
just a question:
If the Dragon CRS is berthed with the ISS , and an emergency happens on board,
is it technically possible to "jump"  into the Dragon, unberth it  and return to earth ??
(in current  or slightly modified configuration)
what about  oxygen Supply , Air Pressure , Weight limitation,  comm , control , etc.
how many astronauts will fit inside ?
 
No (in one word)

1.  it can not unberth itself
2.  it has no life support system (O2 supply, CO2 removal, heat removal, H2O removal, etc)
3. it has no place for a human to sit or stand (it is configured for holding logistics), except for the center section.
3.There are no controls or comm
« Last Edit: 01/20/2012 03:14 pm by Jim »

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #2 on: 01/20/2012 03:26 pm »
That's 53 words!
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Offline rubtest

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case on an emergency.
« Reply #3 on: 01/20/2012 03:55 pm »

No (in one word)

1.  it can not unberth itself
2.  it has no life support system (O2 supply, CO2 removal, heat removal, H2O removal, etc)
3. it has no place for a human to sit or stand (it is configured for holding logistics), except for the center section.
3.There are no controls or comm

The technical challenge is obvious.
but what is needed technically to solve it ?
the Soyuz  has solution to all those issues .
the Dragon as a craft designed  as "human  rated" can try to solve these issues
also.  At least it can land correctly , as the cheese cake test proved.
 :)

Offline starsilk

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #4 on: 01/20/2012 04:09 pm »
presumably with herculean efforts, ala Apollo 13 (and enough time to implement them), most of the issues could be overcome - emergency oxygen and CO2 scrubbers etc could be moved onboard, or spacesuits could be worn.

the major issues would be heat (not enough radiating capacity for six or seven humans), and the big one.. someone would have to heroically stay behind to unberth it.


Online Robotbeat

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #5 on: 01/20/2012 04:15 pm »
Speaking of Herculean, Apollo-13-ish efforts, is the station arm computer networked?
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Offline chrisking0997

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #6 on: 01/20/2012 04:21 pm »
I guess if we're just talking hypotheticals here, what exactly is required on station to be done for berthing Dragon (that cannot be done remotely from the ground)?  Would R2 be able to tackle those?
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Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #7 on: 01/20/2012 04:26 pm »
presumably with herculean efforts, ala Apollo 13 (and enough time to implement them), most of the issues could be overcome - emergency oxygen and CO2 scrubbers etc could be moved onboard, or spacesuits could be worn.


No, not true and there still isn't room for suits for more than one person.

What scrubbers?
« Last Edit: 01/20/2012 04:30 pm by Jim »

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #8 on: 01/20/2012 04:27 pm »
I guess if we're just talking hypotheticals here, what exactly is required on station to be done for berthing Dragon (that cannot be done remotely from the ground)?  Would R2 be able to tackle those?

Has R2 even done one thing more than PR stuff yet?

R2 can't move itself around.

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #9 on: 01/20/2012 04:28 pm »
1) No life-support;

2) No seats;

3) Too small for 6 x PLSS packs (even if they had six EVA suits, which they don't)

So, no chance.
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Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case on an emergency.
« Reply #10 on: 01/20/2012 04:29 pm »

No (in one word)

1.  it can not unberth itself
2.  it has no life support system (O2 supply, CO2 removal, heat removal, H2O removal, etc)
3. it has no place for a human to sit or stand (it is configured for holding logistics), except for the center section.
3.There are no controls or comm

The technical challenge is obvious.
but what is needed technically to solve it ?

A Dragon designed for crew launched to the station.

Offline MikeMelga

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #11 on: 01/20/2012 05:55 pm »
I don't think seats are a problem. The cargo is usually held by straps, they could strap themselves to the floor.

How many hours does it take from detach to splashdown?
Also, is the cargo version sea impact speed low enough for humans to survive?

Offline starsilk

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #12 on: 01/20/2012 06:01 pm »
presumably with herculean efforts, ala Apollo 13 (and enough time to implement them), most of the issues could be overcome - emergency oxygen and CO2 scrubbers etc could be moved onboard, or spacesuits could be worn.

No, not true and there still isn't room for suits for more than one person.

well, they don't actually need the suits, just the O2 tanks and some sort of face masks.

What scrubbers?

these ones:

http://suzymchale.com/ruspace/issrslss.html#cannister

and a nice bodge job with duct tape, just like Apollo 13.

Offline renclod

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #13 on: 01/20/2012 06:11 pm »
How many simultaneously useable EVA suits are there at the ISS at this time ?


Offline Space Pete

How many simultaneously useable EVA suits are there at the ISS at this time ?

Seven, I think (four US EMUs, three Russian Orlans). Actually, there might be four Orlans...maybe a Russian member knows?
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Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #15 on: 01/20/2012 06:29 pm »
I don't think seats are a problem. The cargo is usually held by straps, they could strap themselves to the floor.

How many hours does it take from detach to splashdown?
Also, is the cargo version sea impact speed low enough for humans to survive?

wrong, the cargo Dragon uses metal compartment dividers.  There is no floor space

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #16 on: 01/20/2012 06:31 pm »
presumably with herculean efforts, ala Apollo 13 (and enough time to implement them), most of the issues could be overcome - emergency oxygen and CO2 scrubbers etc could be moved onboard, or spacesuits could be worn.

No, not true and there still isn't room for suits for more than one person.

well, they don't actually need the suits, just the O2 tanks and some sort of face masks.

What scrubbers?

these ones:

http://suzymchale.com/ruspace/issrslss.html#cannister

and a nice bodge job with duct tape, just like Apollo 13.

there has to be airflow for scrubbers to work

The tanks are not acccessable .

Offline cuddihy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #17 on: 01/20/2012 06:32 pm »
Agreed, we're not talking about "living in space" here, you're talking about a short term escape from the station.

De-berthing from outside the station is the big impossibility right now. you would need some way to unberth the capsule. So unless someone was willing to stay behind and unberth you, it would be some kind of heroic first-of-its kind ground-commanded remote robotic deberthing.

But a more realistic scenario is: 6 people onboard, space station disabled, only one of 2 Soyuz capsules are reachable or working. The Soyuz users unberth the Dragon and then undock themselves.

But the life support consideration such as O2, Co2 not such a big deal since presumably you're de-orbiting within 2-3 orbits. Maybe 3-6 hrs.

3 astronauts at rest would add about 900 BTU/hr to heat loading, and that's a lot in the small space inside a dragon. I would think the most you could do would be 3-4 hrs without some kind of external removal system, and I doubt it but you may need an O2 supply and CO2 removal if it takes more than 1 orbit to phase to a safe landing location.

So a small emergency O2 candle and a LiOH canister as used during the Mir Spectre disaster could probably see you through to the surface.

Seats may be a big deal depending on how many g's you have to pull on reentry. We don't know how many g's Dragon COTS 1 pulled on its reentry, but it was also from a different orbit so who knows how that compares to an emergency rentry profile.

Of course there have been some very innovative storeable light cloth seat concepts such as those proposed for a (T/space?Quicklaunch? can't recall which concept had the canvas reversable seats) biconic capsule that had to reverse the loading direction between launch and return.

Anyway as I said the main issue is you need a soyuz at the station still so someone can deberth and then escape via alternate means.
« Last Edit: 01/20/2012 11:35 pm by cuddihy »

Offline cuddihy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #18 on: 01/20/2012 06:42 pm »
presumably with herculean efforts, ala Apollo 13 (and enough time to implement them), most of the issues could be overcome - emergency oxygen and CO2 scrubbers etc could be moved onboard, or spacesuits could be worn.

No, not true and there still isn't room for suits for more than one person.

well, they don't actually need the suits, just the O2 tanks and some sort of face masks.

What scrubbers?

these ones:

http://suzymchale.com/ruspace/issrslss.html#cannister

and a nice bodge job with duct tape, just like Apollo 13.

there has to be airflow for scrubbers to work

The tanks are not acccessable .

Again, the CO2 can build up quite a ways and the O2 can deplete quite a bit from station normals before people will begin to have problems. CO is a bigger problem.

O2 candles work just fine, require no airflow beyond their own chemically generated. but they do add to the heat problem. Additionally they will increase the pressure so the concern it adds if you have to wait to deorbit for a bit is how to relieve the pressure inside the capsule, unless there's already some capability to do that (like a relief valve) already native to Dragon. You would have to especially make an O2 candle to this size and purpose.

LiOH canisters can be one-time use with battery operated fans. Failing that you can literally put the crystals in a cloth bag and they will scrub the CO2. On our submarines in a disabled state, we use the battery-operated fans and then if those fail you spread the crystals out on the deck. or course gravity helps you out there. Like I said, a cloth bag will work as well.

The big kahuna the longer you stay up is the heat issue and following that the moisture inside the capsule.
« Last Edit: 01/20/2012 11:37 pm by cuddihy »

Offline DMeader

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #19 on: 01/20/2012 06:47 pm »
Not to mention, what would a few people and assorted stuff not normally carried do to the CG and behavior of the vehicle?

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #20 on: 01/20/2012 06:50 pm »
What are the flight readiness of Paragon Space Development Corporation's plug-and-play environmental control and life support system (ECLSS) Air Revitalization System (ARS)?  Also the flight readiness of the ECLSS SpaceX is developing for the Dragon?

Offline cuddihy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #21 on: 01/20/2012 08:47 pm »
Not to mention, what would a few people and assorted stuff not normally carried do to the CG and behavior of the vehicle?

Surely the first couple of COTS/CRS flights will resolve this.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #22 on: 01/20/2012 09:11 pm »
just a question:;
If the Dragon CRS is berthed with the ISS , and an emergency happens on board,  (:
is it technically possible to "jump"  into the Dragon, unberth it  and return to earth ??
(in current  or slightly modified configuration)
what about  oxygen Supply , Air Pressure , Weight limitation,  comm , control , etc.
how many astronauts will fit inside ?



 

No.

Dragon is specifically undesigned for emergency egress capability, in the sense that the differences between the cargo and crew vehicles are mostly in the areas described above.

Offline Norm38

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #23 on: 01/20/2012 09:49 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?
It seems natural for a cargo Dragon to have some lifeboat capability since it does reenter and land.  So I'd expect the manned flight systems to start being installed on cargo versions in the order they're developed, to test it all out as they go.

For example, if the cargo version retained air handling equipment, it would make the space more useable while docked and give the hardware more flight time.  And at the current scale of electronics, why not install the flight controls and comms early, and test them during the cargo flights?

Unless the mass penalty is prohibitive, manned and cargo should be as common as possible.  Cargo flights thus also become man-rating test flights.

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #24 on: 01/20/2012 09:52 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?
It seems natural for a cargo Dragon to have some lifeboat capability since it does reenter and land.  So I'd expect the manned flight systems to start being installed on cargo versions in the order they're developed, to test it all out as they go.

For example, if the cargo version retained air handling equipment, it would make the space more useable while docked and give the hardware more flight time.  And at the current scale of electronics, why not install the flight controls and comms early, and test them during the cargo flights?

Unless the mass penalty is prohibitive, manned and cargo should be as common as possible.  Cargo flights thus also become man-rating test flights.

No, because the systems would take up volume which is more critical than mass

Offline Danderman

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #25 on: 01/20/2012 09:58 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?

Let me introduce you to two spacecraft named "Soyuz" and "Progress".


Offline Lars_J

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #26 on: 01/20/2012 10:03 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?

Let me introduce you to two spacecraft named "Soyuz" and "Progress".

I'm not sure what your point is. Progress/Soyuz is not a perfect analogy. The plan is certainly to have Cargo/Crew Dragons be more similar systems than Soyuz/Progress.

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #27 on: 01/20/2012 10:15 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?

Let me introduce you to two spacecraft named "Soyuz" and "Progress".

I'm not sure what your point is. Progress/Soyuz is not a perfect analogy. The plan is certainly to have Cargo/Crew Dragons be more similar systems than Soyuz/Progress.

I would say they are

Offline cuddihy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #28 on: 01/20/2012 11:31 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?
It seems natural for a cargo Dragon to have some lifeboat capability since it does reenter and land.  So I'd expect the manned flight systems to start being installed on cargo versions in the order they're developed, to test it all out as they go.

For example, if the cargo version retained air handling equipment, it would make the space more useable while docked and give the hardware more flight time.  And at the current scale of electronics, why not install the flight controls and comms early, and test them during the cargo flights?

Unless the mass penalty is prohibitive, manned and cargo should be as common as possible.  Cargo flights thus also become man-rating test flights.

No, because the systems would take up volume which is more critical than mass

No, it doesn't make sense to have a permanent ECLSS taking up room in every cargo dragon. But that's not the requirement if you're going to use a cargo dragon as an escape capsule.

It really might make sense to have a one-time  "go-kit" containing emergency escape life support systems brought to the station. It need only be brought up as often as the lifetime of the contents (e.g. the safe lifetime of the chlorate O2 candle). For instance, if your kit contained:
-3 canvas escape seats that mount in CRS Dragon
-1-2 small O2 candles +  diffuser
-LiO2 canister/fan system

That kind of  "emergency one-time short term use" equipment could be brought up and left, and is cheaper than an additional soyuz, and might enable emergency lifeboat-type use.

Still requires a pressure control mod (if it doesn't already exist) to the Dragon. Thermal upgrade if the on-board isn't already good enough, although I suspect it would be.

*update* You could also use some Navy-style OBAs for an emergency use. They perform both functions. We've used them for years in the Navy, the only reason they're being phased out is cost and operability (new cartidges, disposal of old ones as HAZMAT, and the operations issue of people having the right numbers in the right places and canisters going bad, etc).

A more obscure but real issue is the fact that the training (dead, orange in color) cartridges and real(live, green in color) cartridges can be mixed up in a real fire due to vision obscured in a real event, as well as the fact that people often do as they're trained (grab the training cartridge instead of the real one), which means pretty soon they pass out in the fire zone from lack of oxygen and have to be pulled out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_Breathing_Apparatus
« Last Edit: 01/20/2012 11:52 pm by cuddihy »

Offline Danderman

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #29 on: 01/20/2012 11:43 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?

Let me introduce you to two spacecraft named "Soyuz" and "Progress".

I'm not sure what your point is. Progress/Soyuz is not a perfect analogy. The plan is certainly to have Cargo/Crew Dragons be more similar systems than Soyuz/Progress.

The point is that cargo vehicles based on crew vehicles are optimized to carry cargo.  his optimization process means that systems that could be used to support crew are often deleted.

« Last Edit: 01/20/2012 11:44 pm by Danderman »

Offline cuddihy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #30 on: 01/20/2012 11:47 pm »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?

Let me introduce you to two spacecraft named "Soyuz" and "Progress".

I'm not sure what your point is. Progress/Soyuz is not a perfect analogy. The plan is certainly to have Cargo/Crew Dragons be more similar systems than Soyuz/Progress.

The point is that cargo vehicles based on crew vehicles are optimized to carry cargo.  This optimization process means that systems that could be used to support crew are often deleted.


So? Most of mass required for crew return is already included in Dragon. Crew/Cargo dragon are both closer to Soyuz than Soyuz is to Progress on  the basis of systems included/not included.

Number one and two is obviously heat shield and parachutes.

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #31 on: 01/21/2012 01:37 am »
For the next few flights no, but SpaceX isn't planning to have two production lines, correct?  Once a manned Dragon is flying, shouldn't the cargo version also get most of the same features installed?
It seems natural for a cargo Dragon to have some lifeboat capability since it does reenter and land.  So I'd expect the manned flight systems to start being installed on cargo versions in the order they're developed, to test it all out as they go.

For example, if the cargo version retained air handling equipment, it would make the space more useable while docked and give the hardware more flight time.  And at the current scale of electronics, why not install the flight controls and comms early, and test them during the cargo flights?

Unless the mass penalty is prohibitive, manned and cargo should be as common as possible.  Cargo flights thus also become man-rating test flights.

No, because the systems would take up volume which is more critical than mass

No, it doesn't make sense to have a permanent ECLSS taking up room in every cargo dragon. But that's not the requirement if you're going to use a cargo dragon as an escape capsule.

It really might make sense to have a one-time  "go-kit" containing emergency escape life support systems brought to the station. It need only be brought up as often as the lifetime of the contents (e.g. the safe lifetime of the chlorate O2 candle). For instance, if your kit contained:
-3 canvas escape seats that mount in CRS Dragon
-1-2 small O2 candles +  diffuser
-LiO2 canister/fan system

That kind of  "emergency one-time short term use" equipment could be brought up and left, and is cheaper than an additional soyuz, and might enable emergency lifeboat-type use.

Still requires a pressure control mod (if it doesn't already exist) to the Dragon. Thermal upgrade if the on-board isn't already good enough, although I suspect it would be.

*update* You could also use some Navy-style OBAs for an emergency use. They perform both functions. We've used them for years in the Navy, the only reason they're being phased out is cost and operability (new cartidges, disposal of old ones as HAZMAT, and the operations issue of people having the right numbers in the right places and canisters going bad, etc).

A more obscure but real issue is the fact that the training (dead, orange in color) cartridges and real(live, green in color) cartridges can be mixed up in a real fire due to vision obscured in a real event, as well as the fact that people often do as they're trained (grab the training cartridge instead of the real one), which means pretty soon they pass out in the fire zone from lack of oxygen and have to be pulled out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_Breathing_Apparatus


Still not viable because of the lack of volume for crew

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #32 on: 01/21/2012 01:40 am »
So? Most of mass required for crew return is already included in Dragon. Crew/Cargo dragon are both closer to Soyuz than Soyuz is to Progress on  the basis of systems included/not included.

Number one and two is obviously heat shield and parachutes.

Is there a citation for that or are you just expressing your opinion? I ask because I've been trying to get some information out of SpaceX on Dragon mass breakdown for years now and they haven't released a sausage to my knowledge.
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Offline M_Puckett

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #33 on: 01/21/2012 01:50 am »
Fear not!  Jaws will stay behind and un-berth the Dragon!

Offline cuddihy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #34 on: 01/21/2012 03:09 am »

No, it doesn't make sense to have a permanent ECLSS taking up room in every cargo dragon. But that's not the requirement if you're going to use a cargo dragon as an escape capsule.

It really might make sense to have a one-time  "go-kit" containing emergency escape life support systems brought to the station. It need only be brought up as often as the lifetime of the contents (e.g. the safe lifetime of the chlorate O2 candle). For instance, if your kit contained:
-3 canvas escape seats that mount in CRS Dragon
-1-2 small O2 candles +  diffuser
-LiO2 canister/fan system

That kind of  "emergency one-time short term use" equipment could be brought up and left, and is cheaper than an additional soyuz, and might enable emergency lifeboat-type use.

Still requires a pressure control mod (if it doesn't already exist) to the Dragon. Thermal upgrade if the on-board isn't already good enough, although I suspect it would be.

*update* You could also use some Navy-style OBAs for an emergency use. They perform both functions. We've used them for years in the Navy, the only reason they're being phased out is cost and operability (new cartidges, disposal of old ones as HAZMAT, and the operations issue of people having the right numbers in the right places and canisters going bad, etc).

A more obscure but real issue is the fact that the training (dead, orange in color) cartridges and real(live, green in color) cartridges can be mixed up in a real fire due to vision obscured in a real event, as well as the fact that people often do as they're trained (grab the training cartridge instead of the real one), which means pretty soon they pass out in the fire zone from lack of oxygen and have to be pulled out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_Breathing_Apparatus


Still not viable because of the lack of volume for crew

Are you saying lack of air volume or physical space for the crew? And what size crew are you talking about? I think we can agree that Dragon will never launch with 7 crew but 3 for return?

Offline Patchouli

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #35 on: 01/21/2012 03:14 am »
You probably could if there was no other choice such as if one of the Soyuz vehicles were damaged.
But there probably is no life support at least no scrubbers minimal thermo control etc.
To bring someone back alive would probably take some Apollo 13 type Macgyvering and probably not unberthing until ISS is over an acceptable landing site.
But the only people who probably know for sure if a CRS Dragon could be rigged for crew return and what it would take are probably those at Spacex.

I'm including the possibility of modifying and launching a new Dragon vs riding the one presently berthed at ISS.

Unless the Station is badly damaged ie loss of attitude control or multiple depressurized modules it probably would be safer to wait for a better equipped vehicle to be sent up.
Here's a view of the inside of the Demo flight 2 vehicle to give an idea how much internal space there is.


« Last Edit: 01/21/2012 03:25 am by Patchouli »

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #36 on: 01/21/2012 03:35 am »
 If you didn't need an LAS and life support for the longer uphill trip, and the SSRMS was operational, modifying a cargo Dragon to launch for a partial evacuation shouldn't be too hard. Say, if one of the Soyuz craft had a serious problem and couldn't be replaced for a while. Not something you'd do if you could avoid it, but an option if you needed one.
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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #37 on: 01/21/2012 03:38 am »
If you didn't need an LAS and life support for the longer uphill trip, and the SSRMS was operational, modifying a cargo Dragon to launch for a partial evacuation shouldn't be too hard. Say, if one of the Soyuz craft had a serious problem and couldn't be replaced for a while. Not something you'd do if you could avoid it, but an option if you needed one.
A very desperate option.
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Offline manboy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case on an emergency.
« Reply #38 on: 01/21/2012 05:41 am »

No (in one word)

1.  it can not unberth itself
2.  it has no life support system (O2 supply, CO2 removal, heat removal, H2O removal, etc)
3. it has no place for a human to sit or stand (it is configured for holding logistics), except for the center section.
3.There are no controls or comm

The technical challenge is obvious.
but what is needed technically to solve it ?
the Soyuz  has solution to all those issues .
the Dragon as a craft designed  as "human  rated" can try to solve these issues
also.  At least it can land correctly , as the cheese cake test proved.
 :)
The Soyuz is a manned spacecraft. The Dragon that will be flying cargo missions is not "human rated" in the same sense as Soyuz.

I guess if we're just talking hypotheticals here, what exactly is required on station to be done for berthing Dragon (that cannot be done remotely from the ground)?  Would R2 be able to tackle those?

Has R2 even done one thing more than PR stuff yet?
They've done intial movement tests for it but its not like it's designed to work Canadarm.

1) No life-support;

2) No seats;

3) Too small for 6 x PLSS packs (even if they had six EVA suits, which they don't)

So, no chance.
Not to mention those EVA suits were never to meant to be used for launch and re-entry (lots of hard parts).

I don't think seats are a problem. The cargo is usually held by straps, they could strap themselves to the floor.

How many hours does it take from detach to splashdown?
Also, is the cargo version sea impact speed low enough for humans to survive?
There isn't enough room for six people on the same level. The crew version will have crew couches to soften the impact.

What are the flight readiness of Paragon Space Development Corporation's plug-and-play environmental control and life support system (ECLSS) Air Revitalization System (ARS)?  Also the flight readiness of the ECLSS SpaceX is developing for the Dragon?
Nowhere as ready and much more risky than launching a new Soyuz.
« Last Edit: 01/21/2012 06:02 am by manboy »
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Offline Jorge

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #39 on: 01/21/2012 05:49 am »
I guess if we're just talking hypotheticals here, what exactly is required on station to be done for berthing Dragon (that cannot be done remotely from the ground)?

Strictly speaking, berthing and unberthing can be done remotely from the ground.

Capture and release, however, cannot be done remotely, and there are no plans to add such capability.

Quote
  Would R2 be able to tackle those?

No.
« Last Edit: 01/21/2012 05:50 am by Jorge »
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Offline manboy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #40 on: 01/21/2012 05:59 am »
But a more realistic scenario is: 6 people onboard, space station disabled, only one of 2 Soyuz capsules are reachable or working. The Soyuz users unberth the Dragon and then undock themselves.
I think it needs to be clarified why the Soyuzes would be either unreachable or inoperable.  And if inoperable why it would not be easier to slowly rotate the crew down as was considered for STS-135 crew if they had become stranded.

I feel its necessary to clarify because as of right now it seems like it would be incredibly dangerous to try to return the crew in a cargo Dragon.
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Offline douglas100

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #41 on: 01/21/2012 10:13 am »

I think it needs to be clarified why the Soyuzes would be either unreachable or inoperable.  And if inoperable why it would not be easier to slowly rotate the crew down as was considered for STS-135 crew if they had become stranded.

Exactly. And a replacement Soyuz can be launched unmanned and dock automatically, if necessary.
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Offline cuddihy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #42 on: 01/21/2012 11:03 pm »
Yes, since they dock at the same location it's unlikely...unless we're talking MMD hit on a soyuz, disabling that Soyuz only.

If it happened during a time when Russia was unable to launch (say post another Russian revolution), I could see the scenario unfolding that way.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #43 on: 01/21/2012 11:34 pm »
I think it needs to be clarified why the Soyuzes would be either unreachable or inoperable.  And if inoperable why it would not be easier to slowly rotate the crew down as was considered for STS-135 crew if they had become stranded.

I feel its necessary to clarify because as of right now it seems like it would be incredibly dangerous to try to return the crew in a cargo Dragon.

Try a simple reason - the Soyuz crashed whilst docking.  Possible damage to both Soyuz and docking port.

edit: spelling
« Last Edit: 01/21/2012 11:35 pm by A_M_Swallow »

Offline nacnud

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #44 on: 01/21/2012 11:44 pm »
You would also have to make the other Russian ports unavailable and for a Soyuz to be unable to be grappled

Offline manboy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #45 on: 01/21/2012 11:48 pm »
I think it needs to be clarified why the Soyuzes would be either unreachable or inoperable.  And if inoperable why it would not be easier to slowly rotate the crew down as was considered for STS-135 crew if they had become stranded.

I feel its necessary to clarify because as of right now it seems like it would be incredibly dangerous to try to return the crew in a cargo Dragon.

Try a simple reason - the Soyuz crashed whilst docking.  Possible damage to both Soyuz and docking port.

edit: spelling
At the moment there are four docking ports on ROS, if one is damaged than there are three other that can be used.
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Offline Jorge

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #46 on: 01/21/2012 11:59 pm »
I think it needs to be clarified why the Soyuzes would be either unreachable or inoperable.  And if inoperable why it would not be easier to slowly rotate the crew down as was considered for STS-135 crew if they had become stranded.

I feel its necessary to clarify because as of right now it seems like it would be incredibly dangerous to try to return the crew in a cargo Dragon.

Try a simple reason - the Soyuz crashed whilst docking.  Possible damage to both Soyuz and docking port.

edit: spelling
At the moment there are four docking ports on ROS, if one is damaged than there are three other that can be used.

Right. The Russians can always undock a Progress to free up a port.
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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #47 on: 01/22/2012 02:59 am »
Yes, since they dock at the same location it's unlikely...unless we're talking MMD hit on a soyuz, disabling that Soyuz only.

If it happened during a time when Russia was unable to launch (say post another Russian revolution), I could see the scenario unfolding that way.
Wasn't that much of a problem last time there was a revolution. Mir was continually inhabited during the fall of the Soviet Union, and the next launch to Mir after the fall of the Soviet Union (from the independent Kazakhstan) happened before the previous crew departed.

It may well be safer for the crew to be provisioned with unmanned vehicles until a safer option for departing ISS was found. An accelerated commercial crew vehicle or Orion would probably make more sense than an unmodified Dragon Cargo if for some reason Soyuz was just impossible to use. Make them exercise twice as often and give them bisphosphonates to treat osteoporosis (which has already been tested pretty successfully on ISS) while a safer option for Station-egress is found.
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Offline rubtest

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #48 on: 01/23/2012 08:22 am »
What I understood from the answers to this topic is that the usage of Dragon as emergency downhill lift is quite risky, especially the control after leaving the ISS space.
from reading the CBM specs I understood that without power the berthing mechanism
is blocked and can not be reopened manually, because the locking pins.   
I would suggest anyway to  SPACEX and NASA if I may to monitor the environment in the return Dragon capsule with some simulated human load ( heat 60 w per person ? , CO2 exhaust ).something more elaborate then cheese cake.  maybe they have thought about it too.

cheers

 

Offline apace

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #49 on: 01/23/2012 10:23 am »
What I understood from the answers to this topic is that the usage of Dragon as emergency downhill lift is quite risky, especially the control after leaving the ISS space.
from reading the CBM specs I understood that without power the berthing mechanism
is blocked and can not be reopened manually, because the locking pins.   
I would suggest anyway to  SPACEX and NASA if I may to monitor the environment in the return Dragon capsule with some simulated human load ( heat 60 w per person ? , CO2 exhaust ).something more elaborate then cheese cake.  maybe they have thought about it too.

cheers

 

Why? For the cargo missions, the space is needed for the cargo and for the future human craft, there will be a life support system and procedures to rate it for human use. There's simply no nood for a dragon as a life boat now.

Offline rubtest

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #50 on: 01/23/2012 11:06 am »

---------- quote ----------------------------------------------------------
Why? For the cargo missions, the space is needed for the cargo and for the future human craft, there will be a life support system and procedures to rate it for human use. There's simply no nood for a dragon as a life boat now.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because it is ( almost) there...
the first Cargo Vessel that  will return safely to earth with a pressurized room
probably also with room temperature inside. Monitoring sensors for temperatue pressure, Vibration  and humidity are probably already build in ( for the cargo of course ) .
such a vessel can really be used first as a return possibility of live experiments from ISS.

heater are also surly on board ( for the pressurized cargo) and can be turned on on
the way back to simulate human presence . CO2 can be produced from some pieces of dry ice ..
« Last Edit: 01/23/2012 11:08 am by rubtest »

Offline douglas100

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #51 on: 01/23/2012 11:17 am »
What's the point of going on with this discussion? The Dragon as currently designed can't be used as a lifeboat. Period.
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Offline rdale

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #52 on: 01/23/2012 12:14 pm »
But if you put a cheesecake in it - maybe it will be?

:)

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #53 on: 01/23/2012 01:39 pm »

Because it is ( almost) there...
the first Cargo Vessel that  will return safely to earth with a pressurized room
probably also with room temperature inside. Monitoring sensors for temperatue pressure, Vibration  and humidity are probably already build in ( for the cargo of course ) .
such a vessel can really be used first as a return possibility of live experiments from ISS.

heater are also surly on board ( for the pressurized cargo) and can be turned on on
the way back to simulate human presence . CO2 can be produced from some pieces of dry ice ..


Not a good enough reason.  They are already designing a manned version, no need to waste money testing something they don't need to.

And no, there are no heaters, no need for them.
and dry ice is not useable since it would have to be installed days be fore launch.

This is meaningless
« Last Edit: 01/23/2012 01:40 pm by Jim »

Offline cuddihy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #54 on: 01/23/2012 01:55 pm »
What's the point of going on with this discussion? The Dragon as currently designed can't be used as a lifeboat. Period.

Obviously you haven't read this thread very carefully. A better answer is 'shouldn't be used as a lifeboat...' A lifeboat is not your second option--it is a last option when the Stuff hits the fan.

I'm not sure why you're saying 'can't'. After all, so much depends on the actual details of the use. A 24 hr in-space lifeboat before de-orbit? Ok, I'll buy 'can't' in that case. Just as your standard 2 man emergency lifeboat 'cant' work for survival in arctic waters.

On the other hand, as an alternative to death on a failing station? Odds of survival on Dragon infinitely better than in a Progress, although significantly worse than in a Soyuz.

So? Obviously this is for a 'not enough Soyuz available' scenario, and a 'station incapable of extended sheltering' as well.

That said, there's nothing inherently dangerous about Dragon's design for return. Weak points are as follows:
1.Inability to self-deberth. Ok, clearly requires someone to stay behind and perform de-berth.
2. Lack of ventilation and atmospheric life support.
A. Ok, that restricts lifeboat use based on # astronauts aboard and time to landing (I'm not sure what the minimum time from hatch shut to landing would be. My guess is 5-6 hrs. Anyone know?) 
Or
B. requires addition of temporary atmospheric support such as rebreathers, again restricted by # people and time to landing. Some methods would additionally require Dragon to relieve excessive pressure.
3. Thermal support. Ok, this one needs some data to determine. Can Dragon w/ trunk handle people thermal loads? We don't know yet, but obviously without ventilation this is a question mark even if the capsule itself can handle the loading, can the people handle the heat. Again this will be time dependant.
4. Handling/avionics. Come on. Surely this  can be figured out after a CRS flight or two.
5. Physical loading on the astronauts. Clearly the biggest hurdle. Without built-in couches I think it is an open question if astronauts would survive de-orbit acceleration, parachute deployment, and splashdown. One mitigation method discussed above is emergency use stowable couches that would be kept on ISS unless needed for lifeboat use. Like 2B above, it would probably require minor design mods to Dragon.

So what we have is 5 major issues with using Dragon as a lifeboat, some of which restrict number of people or are time-to-deorbit dependant, and two of which, #2B and #5, require additional design work on Dragon or additional lifeboat supplies to be provided.

All that says 'yes, Dragon can be used as a life boat in an emergency, but it requires some additional work first'.



Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #55 on: 01/23/2012 02:20 pm »

So what we have is 5 major issues with using Dragon as a lifeboat, some of which restrict number of people or are time-to-deorbit dependant, and two of which, #2B and #5, require additional design work on Dragon or additional lifeboat supplies to be provided.

All that says 'yes, Dragon can be used as a life boat in an emergency, but it requires some additional work first'.

No, it doesn't.  You keep over looking the major issue, lack of physical room for the evacuees.   The vehicle is full of hardware, like large cubbyholes to hold logistics items.
« Last Edit: 01/23/2012 02:29 pm by Jim »

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #56 on: 01/23/2012 02:33 pm »
Don't worry Jim, the cargo dragon will get an astronaut down, no matter how many trips it takes... cue the bandsaw ;)
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Offline rubtest

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #57 on: 01/23/2012 03:24 pm »
Don't worry Jim, the cargo dragon will get an astronaut down, no matter how many trips it takes... cue the bandsaw ;)

exactly , why didn't we think about it before. ! no place ?  make place !
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Offline douglas100

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #58 on: 01/23/2012 04:12 pm »

All that says 'yes, Dragon can be used as a life boat in an emergency, but it requires some additional work first'.

Which doesn't contradict what I said in my post. To use the current dragon to try to escape from the station would be an act of extreme desperation. It wouldn't be like getting into a lifeboat, it would be like jumping out of the upper floor of a burning building.

As for the work needed to turn Dragon into a lifeboat, Jim already answered that. It would be more than "some additional work."
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Offline dcporter

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #59 on: 01/23/2012 04:53 pm »
TO SUMMARIZE

Using a cargo dragon to get people home in an unexpected emergency would take as-much-or-more work and with more as-much-or-more danger than Apollo 13 (including apparently doing insane Michael Bay style blow-torch on-orbit mods to get the racks out and make room for the people) (and would require them to be wrapped in bubble wrap and hold their breath), and in almost every such conceivable emergency there would be legions of better options.

If you're looking for the answer to be "yes that's possible" then you can concoct an action movie scenario. The real world answer is as close to "no way c'mon man" as you can get.

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #60 on: 01/24/2012 03:55 am »
TO SUMMARIZE
Using a cargo dragon to get people home in an unexpected emergency would take as-much-or-more work and with more as-much-or-more danger than Apollo 13 (including apparently doing insane Michael Bay style blow-torch on-orbit mods to get the racks out and make room for the people) (and would require them to be wrapped in bubble wrap and hold their breath), and in almost every such conceivable emergency there would be legions of better options.
If you're looking for the answer to be "yes that's possible" then you can concoct an action movie scenario. The real world answer is as close to "no way c'mon man" as you can get.
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Offline Patchouli

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #61 on: 01/24/2012 04:16 am »
TO SUMMARIZE

Using a cargo dragon to get people home in an unexpected emergency would take as-much-or-more work and with more as-much-or-more danger than Apollo 13 (including apparently doing insane Michael Bay style blow-torch on-orbit mods to get the racks out and make room for the people) (and would require them to be wrapped in bubble wrap and hold their breath), and in almost every such conceivable emergency there would be legions of better options.

If you're looking for the answer to be "yes that's possible" then you can concoct an action movie scenario. The real world answer is as close to "no way c'mon man" as you can get.

The racks are probably bolted in vs welded so the vehicle can be reconfigured for other missions and cargo.
Spacex plans to reuse CRS dragons for Dragon labs.
You would not need a torch instead a tool set with the appropriate bits and sockets would be needed.
In theory a a CO2 scrubber could be lifted from somewhere such as the LiOH cartridges in the EMUs and an O2 generator such as the SFOG on the Russian side rigged in.
This would be fairly dangerous as none of these systems have been tested for use in Dragon let alone together and would have just as much chance at killing the crew as saving them.
It would be one of those things that would make for a good Macgyver episode.

In reality if the station still has power ,attitude control,pressurisation, and consumables it would be safer remain on ISS and launch a new Dragon properly configured for crew return or better yet a new Soyuz if one of the RDS ports are still usable.

But this does highlight the need to get the CCDev vehicles flying ASAP so we have alternative access to ISS.
« Last Edit: 01/24/2012 04:50 am by Patchouli »

Offline cuddihy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #62 on: 01/24/2012 05:42 am »

So what we have is 5 major issues with using Dragon as a lifeboat, some of which restrict number of people or are time-to-deorbit dependant, and two of which, #2B and #5, require additional design work on Dragon or additional lifeboat supplies to be provided.

All that says 'yes, Dragon can be used as a life boat in an emergency, but it requires some additional work first'.

No, it doesn't.  You keep over looking the major issue, lack of physical room for the evacuees.   The vehicle is full of hardware, like large cubbyholes to hold logistics items.

Do you know of a publicly available image or document that shows this, or is this a secret knowledge available only to NASA Insiders (c)?

*update * no sooner do I post than I see the new *as of today* panorama of the inside of Dragon...tough to get a scale but it  looks like sufficient room for people right there, but not room for any  suspended couches. It's more than nuts and bolts holding it all together, welds are involved. All said, i guesstimate space for only two people on jury-rigged couches, and one of those seats is uncomfortably small and close to storage bins. But you could save one person for sure!

Still don't think the sarcasm was called for given Jim didn't bother to answer the question about which volume was talking about (air volume or physical space), then said I "kept overlooking" the issue when no images were public until today. But that's fighting City Hall here I guess...
« Last Edit: 01/24/2012 05:55 am by cuddihy »

Offline apace

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #63 on: 01/24/2012 05:52 am »
No, it doesn't.  You keep over looking the major issue, lack of physical room for the evacuees.   The vehicle is full of hardware, like large cubbyholes to hold logistics items.
Do you know of a publicly available image or document that shows this, or is this a secret knowledge available only to NASA Insiders (c)?

Simply click on the SpaceX is website, there you find older pictures about the inside of cargo dragon and in the current updates a interactive panorama of it.

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #64 on: 01/24/2012 01:41 pm »

Do you know of a publicly available image or document that shows this, or is this a secret knowledge available only to NASA Insiders (c)?

*update * no sooner do I post than I see the new *as of today* panorama of the inside of Dragon...tough to get a scale but it  looks like sufficient room for people right there, but not room for any  suspended couches. It's more than nuts and bolts holding it all together, welds are involved. All said, i guesstimate space for only two people on jury-rigged couches, and one of those seats is uncomfortably small and close to storage bins. But you could save one person for sure!

Still don't think the sarcasm was called for given Jim didn't bother to answer the question about which volume was talking about (air volume or physical space), then said I "kept overlooking" the issue when no images were public until today. But that's fighting City Hall here I guess...

There are many interior photos on the web or their website available prior to the update

The spot where the panorama was take will also have some hardware to hold logistics.

I expect people to do their own work and research when it comes to publicly available information.  If it isn't available, I state it.

Offline rubtest

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #65 on: 01/24/2012 04:00 pm »
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/index.html

mmm.  , a little bit uninviting ....
« Last Edit: 01/24/2012 04:02 pm by rubtest »

Offline quixote

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #66 on: 01/24/2012 11:41 pm »
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/index.html

mmm.  , a little bit uninviting ....


Here are links to all the pictures used to compose the "panorama" page. Others have suggested uploading all files in case they change or remove the contents, but I'm a little too lazy to upload 30 separate files. I do have them downloaded, though, just in case.

http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexA_0.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexA_1.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexA_2.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexA_3.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexA_4.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexA_5.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexB_0.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexB_1.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexB_2.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexB_3.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexB_4.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexB_5.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexC_0.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexC_1.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexC_2.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexC_3.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexC_4.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexC_5.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexD_0.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexD_1.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexD_2.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexD_3.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexD_4.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexD_5.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexE_0.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexE_1.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexE_2.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexE_3.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexE_4.jpg
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/spacexE_5.jpg

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #67 on: 01/25/2012 01:41 am »
http://www.spacex.com/panorama/index.html

mmm.  , a little bit uninviting ....


It's a cargo craft, what did you expect? A couch? ;-)

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #68 on: 01/25/2012 11:39 am »
 I like the "Exit" sign on the hatch. Sounds like an OSHA requirement.
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Offline majormajor42

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #69 on: 04/21/2012 10:57 am »
Maybe this is more of a ISS Q&A question:

How are the berthing hatches closed in normal Dragon de-bearthing operations? In this fantasy scenario does a crew member have to remain on ISS to close the hatch?

After the first couple CRS missions, will the RMS movements for de-bearthing be set? Can these series of movements be programmed to run, or are there variables that make it necessary to manually control the arm, even while performing seemingly repetitive tasks?
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Offline Space Pete

Maybe this is more of a ISS Q&A question:

How are the berthing hatches closed in normal Dragon de-bearthing operations? In this fantasy scenario does a crew member have to remain on ISS to close the hatch?

After the first couple CRS missions, will the RMS movements for de-bearthing be set? Can these series of movements be programmed to run, or are there variables that make it necessary to manually control the arm, even while performing seemingly repetitive tasks?

To close the hatches between the ISS and Dragon is a lengthy process, since, unlike with the APAS docking system, all the connections have to be manually de-mated.

Predictions have shown that if a price of debris were to strike the ISS, the entire station would depressurise within about three minutes. So, if Dragon were the escape vehicle, crews would have to shut off ventilation between the ISS and Dragon, de-mate all connectors (atmosphere revitalisation, cooling, electrical power, data), mount and connect the electronics boxes that control the berthing/unberthing operation, close and latch the ISS side hatch (which can be done from either side - so a crewmember would not have to remain on the ISS side to close the hatch), and then close and latch the Dragon side hatch. I don't know the exact time all this would take, but it is a lot longer than three minutes (probably more like 15+, even in a panicked hurry).

In the mean time, the SSRMS would have to grapple the Dragon, and once it was un-berthed, maneuver it to the release position and ungrapple it, whereupon Dragon would have to be commanded to fly away from ISS. The problem however is that this process is usually controlled by the ISS crew, who wouldn't be on board during such an emergency scenario.

It is true that that ground could also perform this operation, but remember that a large hole in the ISS through which air is rapidly escaping is basically one big thruster, which would likely put ISS into some kind of a tumble, breaking antenna lock with the ground and preventing them from commanding the SSRMS and unberthing process.

As for making the process automated, the SSRMS already has the ability to perform automated maneuvers, but the variable is the unberthing process - that cannot be performed automatically. For such an automated unberthing and release process to occur, the ISS would have to some how "know" when all the hatches are closed in order to begin the unberthing process, and the SSRMS would have to "know" when the unberthing was complete in order to begin the release maneuver.

So, all in all, a very complex situation at best.
« Last Edit: 04/22/2012 05:52 pm by Space Pete »
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Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #71 on: 04/23/2012 06:03 am »
After some reflection on this thread. I don't think using the CRS as a escape pod could be done while attached to the ISS using the CBM system without a lot time & funding.

However, maybe a NDS to CBM adopter module could be use for quick evacuation from the ISS with onboard cold gas thrusters. The CRS would be berthed normally and re-config for CRV role before being attached to the adopter with the  SSRMS.

Or SpaceX could just licensed  the Russian docking system and replaced the CBM with it for a CRV Dragon.


Offline manboy

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #72 on: 04/23/2012 06:42 am »
After some reflection on this thread. I don't think using the CRS as a escape pod could be done while attached to the ISS using the CBM system without a lot time & funding.

However, maybe a NDS to CBM adopter module could be use for quick evacuation from the ISS with onboard cold gas thrusters. The CRS would be berthed normally and re-config for CRV role before being attached to the adopter with the  SSRMS.
It really doesn't sound like it would be worth the effort.

Or SpaceX could just licensed  the Russian docking system and replaced the CBM with it for a CRV Dragon.
To use their docking system, SpaceX would need to get an ITAR exemption. I don't think Russia would allow NASA to regularly use the Russian segment for cargo intended only for USOS. NASA has no desire to use the very tiny transfer passage of the Russian Probe & Drogue (the mechanism used on Soyuz, Progress and ATV).
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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #73 on: 04/23/2012 09:11 am »
NASA has no desire to use the very tiny transfer passage of the Russian Probe & Drogue (the mechanism used on Soyuz, Progress and ATV).

That passageway has a diameter of 32 inches (80 centimeters). That is not very wide, but certainly not tiny either.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #74 on: 04/23/2012 12:08 pm »
Or SpaceX could just licensed  the Russian docking system and replaced the CBM with it for a CRV Dragon.
To use their docking system, SpaceX would need to get an ITAR exemption. I don't think Russia would allow NASA to regularly use the Russian segment for cargo intended only for USOS.

The CRV Dragon would be an auxillary supply vehicle. It's main purpose would be replacing the current 2 Souyz escape pods and freeing up a docking port for the Russians. Also, IIRC the Dragon is able to be operational in orbit for about a year in dormant state.

Quote
NASA has no desire to use the very tiny transfer passage of the Russian Probe & Drogue (the mechanism used on Soyuz, Progress and ATV).


Jim don't appear to think so.
....Hatch size is not a constraining factor for logistics.  ATV doesn't use CBM....
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28639.msg888770#msg888770


Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #75 on: 04/25/2012 02:46 pm »
just a question:;
If the Dragon CRS is berthed with the ISS , and an emergency happens on board,  (:
is it technically possible to "jump"  into the Dragon, unberth it  and return to earth ??
(in current  or slightly modified configuration)
what about  oxygen Supply , Air Pressure , Weight limitation,  comm , control , etc.
how many astronauts will fit inside ?



 


I suppose if the choice was between immedieate death and this, one would choose this.


But as Jim said, the vehicle is not design to support even one living person for any amount of time. You would basically have whatever breathable atmosphere was in there when you got in and thats it.

There are also no seats or anything to strap into for re-entry, and due to the lack of life support the only way you would live through is if spacex control brought it back in through re-entry as fast as possible, and its doubtful they could do it before you would deplete your atmosphere.


So it would be perhaps only slightly preferable to death, but in terms of being an actual rescue vehicle, no way at all.


Non-withstanding it is possible spacex will design a "life boat" dragon in the future, its just unlikely that they would, however, considering that a crew version of dragon can preform the same function (so just use that instead of designing and flying an additional vehicle).
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Offline FinalFrontier

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case on an emergency.
« Reply #76 on: 04/25/2012 02:49 pm »

No (in one word)

1.  it can not unberth itself
2.  it has no life support system (O2 supply, CO2 removal, heat removal, H2O removal, etc)
3. it has no place for a human to sit or stand (it is configured for holding logistics), except for the center section.
3.There are no controls or comm

The technical challenge is obvious.
but what is needed technically to solve it ?
the Soyuz  has solution to all those issues .
the Dragon as a craft designed  as "human  rated" can try to solve these issues
also.  At least it can land correctly , as the cheese cake test proved.
 :)


There is no point in solving it. A crewed dragon is already being built, as spacex wants to win a commercial crew contract and start flying crew sometime around 2016 (I hope earlier as do many others).

In order to *solve it* as you say, they would have to build a "life boat" version of dragon, but there is no point in doing that as:

1. there is no money or contract from nasa for one
2. It would be a waste of a vehicle even if there was
3. You can do just use the fully crew capable dragon to evac once that vehicle begins operation, why duplicate capability prior to that?


No point in *solving* it when the crew version will be around in another 3-5 years anyway.
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Offline Mindbuilder

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #77 on: 04/26/2012 02:39 am »
Lets think outside the box here :)

If the astronauts can get into suits maybe one can unbirth the dragon and then space walk out of the station and then into the dragon hatch. Space inside the Dragon looks cramped, especially with suits. Aluminum is strong but is susceptible to fatigue cracking. If you can bend the aluminum just a little you can maybe bend it back and forth until it breaks off. Can you break out all the racks quick enough to save yourself? Maybe.

If you're having a hard time detaching and you have a suit, a wedge and improvised sledge hammer should separate the berthing lock almost no matter how tough it is. Maybe you could pry the locking pins apart or strip the wires and use a little battery to actuate the locking motors. Still no luck? Try hacking through the walls of the station all the way around the docking collar. Again, aluminum fatigue cracking may give you a better chance than you might think. Reentry will be tough with a chunk of the station still attached. Mainly you hope the center of gravity still leaves the heat shield down. Parachutes severed or tangled on sharp metal are an issue.

A piece of reflective foil torn off the station somewhere might give some shade and help keep cool on the way down. Orienting the trunk section into the sun for shade might help also. Then your solar panels might not be in the right orientation so you'd have to hope your batteries last till reentry.

I think it only takes a quarter orbit at most or about 30 minutes to get from the station to reentry right? You should never have to do more than a half orbit to hit an ocean somewhere. I'd think the oxygen in a suit or even inside the Dragon, if you don't have to open a hatch, would be enough. The Dragon must have a pressure release valve, so if you can tear an oxygen bottle off the station maybe you could bring it inside and repressurize. It would provide a little cooling on expansion as well. If you have a suit maybe you can get a CO2 scrubber out of the station somewhere.

If you have to come down as fast as possible a quarter orbit might not get you to an ocean. Then the landing will be hard on your head, but maybe still survivable. Maybe you can rig up a little crushable shock absorption for your head during the ride down. If you can lay flat on your back on the floor, the rest of your body should be able to take whatever your head can.

If only one astronaut can get a suit and the others go into the Dragon, the astronaut with the suit can't get in the Dragon for the ride down. Maybe the astronaut in the suit can hold on to the outside till just as the atmosphere starts to warm things up, and then open the hatch and jump in. The astronauts on the inside will probably pass out, but if reentry is quick enough, they may still survive. If the astronaut on the outside can bring along an oxygen bottle, he may be able to repressurize after getting in.

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #78 on: 04/26/2012 03:14 am »

If the astronauts can get into suits

Not enough suits for everyone.

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #79 on: 04/26/2012 03:15 am »
so if you can tear an oxygen bottle off the station maybe you could bring it inside and repressurize.

Not enough in the bottle to do that

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #80 on: 04/26/2012 03:17 am »

 The astronauts on the inside will probably pass out,

No, they will die.  the air will still be too thing.  Columbia burned up at over 100K feet.

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #81 on: 04/26/2012 03:18 am »

If you're having a hard time detaching and you have a suit, a wedge and improvised sledge hammer should separate the berthing lock almost no matter how tough it is. Maybe you could pry the locking pins apart or strip the wires and use a little battery to actuate the locking motors. Still no luck? Try hacking through the walls of the station all the way around the docking collar. 

None of that is possible.

Offline wintermuted

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #82 on: 04/26/2012 03:52 am »
I'd like to correct a minor error thats been made a few times in this thread: the C1 dragon mission carried a wheel of cheese, not cheecake.

Offline Mindbuilder

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #83 on: 04/26/2012 04:47 am »
Quote
Quote
Maybe you could ... strip the wires and use a little battery to actuate the locking motors. Still no luck? Try hacking through the walls of the station all the way around the docking collar.
None of that is possible.
Why couldn't you supply power to actuate the locking motors? How thick are the walls of the station?

   
Quote
Quote
The astronauts on the inside will probably pass out,
No, they will die.  the air will still be too thing.  Columbia burned up at over 100K feet.
I should have wrote that they will certainly pass out. When first heating of reentry starts, the air would still be much too close to vacuum to sustain life, but vacuum doesn't kill instantly. The idea is that it may still be possible to revive them if the reentry wasn't too long. I think brain damage doesn't set in until something like 6 or 8 minutes. That actually doesn't sound like quite enough time, but I'm not sure. You would probably have to start CPR just after parachute opening, well before splashdown.

Quote
Quote
    so if you can tear an oxygen bottle off the station maybe you could bring it inside and repressurize.
Not enough in the bottle to do that
The station goes long periods between resupply. Doesn't it have enough oxygen to refill a single capsule to a low survivable pressure?

Quote
Quote
If the astronauts can get into suits
Not enough suits for everyone.
A poster above said there were 7 suits aboard. Isn't that enough, or was that incorrect? Anyway, some is better than none.


Offline Jason1701

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #84 on: 04/26/2012 05:05 am »
If only one astronaut can get a suit and the others go into the Dragon, the astronaut with the suit can't get in the Dragon for the ride down. Maybe the astronaut in the suit can hold on to the outside till just as the atmosphere starts to warm things up, and then open the hatch and jump in. The astronauts on the inside will probably pass out, but if reentry is quick enough, they may still survive. If the astronaut on the outside can bring along an oxygen bottle, he may be able to repressurize after getting in.

It sounds like you'd be a fan of MOOSE.
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Offline douglas100

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #85 on: 04/26/2012 08:07 am »
Lets think outside the box here :)

OK. Let me think outside the box a moment. Um...why don't they just get in the Soyuz?  :)
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Offline kch

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #86 on: 04/26/2012 08:25 am »
just a question:;
If the Dragon CRS is berthed with the ISS , and an emergency happens on board,  (:
is it technically possible to "jump"  into the Dragon, unberth it  and return to earth ??
(in current  or slightly modified configuration)
what about  oxygen Supply , Air Pressure , Weight limitation,  comm , control , etc.
how many astronauts will fit inside ?
 

I suppose if the choice was between immedieate death and this, one would choose this.

No.  Oh, hell, no.  Better a quick death than that.

Offline kch

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #87 on: 04/26/2012 08:27 am »
Lets think outside the box here :)

OK. Let me think outside the box a moment. Um...why don't they just get in the Soyuz?  :)

Now there's a thought worth thinking!  :D

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #88 on: 04/26/2012 10:13 am »
but vacuum doesn't kill instantly.


It does in seconds, not minutes

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #89 on: 04/26/2012 10:14 am »

Why couldn't you supply power to actuate the locking motors? How thick are the walls of the station?


All motors have to operate at the same time.  w

Walls are around 1/4"

Offline Jim

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #90 on: 04/26/2012 10:15 am »

The station goes long periods between resupply. Doesn't it have enough oxygen to refill a single capsule to a low survivable pressure?


Those bottles are not accessible.

Offline dcporter

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #91 on: 04/26/2012 06:53 pm »
We did this thread once before. The upshot then was, and remains, that while it's possible to dream up a Michael Bay scenario where Bruce Willis makes it work, there are no actual scenarios in which they either wouldn't have other, insanely better options, or would die. There's no margin between "we're out of better options" and "we're dead". Bruce Willis ain't gonna make it folks.

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #92 on: 04/26/2012 06:58 pm »
We did this thread once before. The upshot then was, and remains, that while it's possible to dream up a Michael Bay scenario where Bruce Willis makes it work, there are no actual scenarios in which they either wouldn't have other, insanely better options, or would die. There's no margin between "we're out of better options" and "we're dead". Bruce Willis ain't gonna make it folks.
I'm not so sure that second to last sentence is strictly true, but I also think that if an Apollo 13-like scenarios are possible, we surely aren't going to think of them beforehand.

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Offline Lurker Steve

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #93 on: 04/26/2012 07:44 pm »
We did this thread once before. The upshot then was, and remains, that while it's possible to dream up a Michael Bay scenario where Bruce Willis makes it work, there are no actual scenarios in which they either wouldn't have other, insanely better options, or would die. There's no margin between "we're out of better options" and "we're dead". Bruce Willis ain't gonna make it folks.

Actually, you are almost asking for the terrible Val Kilmer scenario in "Red Planet". Somehow he found some old Mars lander, and was able to modify it in order to shoot himself back to orbit, where the mothership was waiting.

I'm not really sure which movie was worse, Red Planet or the Bruce Willis Asteriod movie.


Offline dcporter

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Re: Bailout from ISS on a CRS Dragon in case of an emergency.
« Reply #94 on: 04/26/2012 08:10 pm »
I'm not so sure that second to last sentence is strictly true, but I also think that if an Apollo 13-like scenarios are possible, we surely aren't going to think of them beforehand.

I think the consensus last time was that if they're alive, they would have better options than struggling to hack a cargo dragon into an almost-guaranteed-to-fail lifeboat. I think Jim has pretty well summarized why this tool just isn't for that job.

Agreed re: your last sentence.

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