Liberty Re-Dux ?

[Prober]

Hypothetical Launch to the ISS.

.

1)   Goal Payload 15-18,000lbs, launch from FLA
2)   First stage use “Liberty” solid
3)   Replace 2nd stage with  ?
4)   How many pounds thrust needed on 2nd stage to make LEO?

Or I can put it another way……want to replace the Liberty 2nd stage with a Different 2nd stage the given payload.   Any ideas?

If someone can point me in the right direction on this so I can do it easy it would be appreciated.

=======
Second set of questions

We have a great deal of experience with solids from the shuttle program.   For storage in FLA what type of humidity, and temperature range would be the ideal and safe?

[Robotbeat]

What about a mini-ET and a single SSME on top? Then you could reduce the solid by one segment and...

Oh.

[Downix]

Upper stage using LR-91 engines, two nozzle configuration (tested and verified, technically a vac-optimized form of LR-87).  Proven system, solid reputation, and would give a ready launch ability lacking from Hydrolox setups.  Would eliminate biggest concern over hypergolic systems, as the engines would be lit at altitude.  System already man-tested with Gemini program.  Ran this though calc awhile back, could pull off with a 4-seg a 26 tonne to ISS orbit.  With 5-seg I'll need to re-calc it, but likely looking at closer to 30 tonne.  Would not be good for GEO, but substituting the Titan Centaur or SEC/DEC from Atlas and you would gain a GEO payload in excess of 13 metric tons, higher than the Delta IV Heavy.

[Patchouli]

Upper stage using LR-91 engines, two nozzle configuration (tested and verified, technically a vac-optimized form of LR-87).  Proven system, solid reputation, and would give a ready launch ability lacking from Hydrolox setups.  Would eliminate biggest concern over hypergolic systems, as the engines would be lit at altitude.  System already man-tested with Gemini program.  Ran this though calc awhile back, could pull off with a 4-seg a 26 tonne to ISS orbit.  With 5-seg I'll need to re-calc it, but likely looking at closer to 30 tonne.  Would not be good for GEO, but substituting the Titan Centaur or SEC/DEC from Atlas and you would gain a GEO payload in excess of 13 metric tons, higher than the Delta IV Heavy.

What about using a Two Merlin vacs or a single RD-120 and avoid the toxic propellant the EPA red tape nightmare that comes with a large hypergolic stage?
Both of these have higher ISP then the LR-91 and are in production.

The best engine might be the RD-0120 from Energia I believe this can be air started as it was proposed for the Energia EUS upper stage.

The RD-0120 should even outperform the SSME Ares I.

[spectre9]

Do I sense a lack of upper stage engines? 

Can't build the Ares 1 without the J2-X I guess.

[Jim]

Hypothetical Launch to the ISS.

.

1)   Goal Payload 15-18,000lbs, launch from FLA
2)   First stage use “Liberty” solid
3)   Replace 2nd stage with  ?
4)   How many pounds thrust needed on 2nd stage to make LEO?

Or I can put it another way……want to replace the Liberty 2nd stage with a Different 2nd stage the given payload.   Any ideas?

If someone can point me in the right direction on this so I can do it easy it would be appreciated.

=======
Second set of questions

We have a great deal of experience with solids from the shuttle program.   For storage in FLA what type of humidity, and temperature range would be the ideal and safe?

Why?

No, we have great experience from other programs.

[Prober]

Upper stage using LR-91 engines, two nozzle configuration (tested and verified, technically a vac-optimized form of LR-87).  Proven system, solid reputation, and would give a ready launch ability lacking from Hydrolox setups.  Would eliminate biggest concern over hypergolic systems, as the engines would be lit at altitude.  System already man-tested with Gemini program.  Ran this though calc awhile back, could pull off with a 4-seg a 26 tonne to ISS orbit.  With 5-seg I'll need to re-calc it, but likely looking at closer to 30 tonne.  Would not be good for GEO, but substituting the Titan Centaur or SEC/DEC from Atlas and you would gain a GEO payload in excess of 13 metric tons, higher than the Delta IV Heavy.

Will look into it, LR-87 is a rock solid engine.
Is this what your talking about?
http://heroicrelics.org/info/titan-i/titan-i-stage-2-engine.html



 Was reading the Liberty thread, how about an Aerojet NK43 (AJ26-59?).  Might be overkill?

[Prober]

Hypothetical Launch to the ISS.

.

1)   Goal Payload 15-18,000lbs, launch from FLA
2)   First stage use “Liberty” solid
3)   Replace 2nd stage with  ?
4)   How many pounds thrust needed on 2nd stage to make LEO?

Or I can put it another way……want to replace the Liberty 2nd stage with a Different 2nd stage the given payload.   Any ideas?

If someone can point me in the right direction on this so I can do it easy it would be appreciated.

=======
Second set of questions

We have a great deal of experience with solids from the shuttle program.   For storage in FLA what type of humidity, and temperature range would be the ideal and safe?

Why?

No, we have great experience from other programs.

WhY what?   I'm not a fan of solids but for this idea they have a few advantages. 

[Prober]

Upper stage using LR-91 engines, two nozzle configuration (tested and verified, technically a vac-optimized form of LR-87).  Proven system, solid reputation, and would give a ready launch ability lacking from Hydrolox setups.  Would eliminate biggest concern over hypergolic systems, as the engines would be lit at altitude.  System already man-tested with Gemini program.  Ran this though calc awhile back, could pull off with a 4-seg a 26 tonne to ISS orbit.  With 5-seg I'll need to re-calc it, but likely looking at closer to 30 tonne.  Would not be good for GEO, but substituting the Titan Centaur or SEC/DEC from Atlas and you would gain a GEO payload in excess of 13 metric tons, higher than the Delta IV Heavy.

What about using a Two Merlin vacs or a single RD-120 and avoid the toxic propellant the EPA red tape nightmare that comes with a large hypergolic stage?
Both of these have higher ISP then the LR-91 and are in production.

The best engine might be the RD-0120 from Energia I believe this can be air started as it was proposed for the Energia EUS upper stage.

The RD-0120 should even outperform the SSME Ares I.

1) SpaceX likes to keep their engines
2) Orbital wanted the RD-0120 and couldn't buy them.

Good ideas, keep'em coming

I do enjoy "brainstorming".

[edkyle99]

Hypothetical Launch to the ISS.
1)   Goal Payload 15-18,000lbs, launch from FLA
2)   First stage use “Liberty” solid
3)   Replace 2nd stage with  ?
4)   How many pounds thrust needed on 2nd stage to make LEO?

Or I can put it another way……want to replace the Liberty 2nd stage with a Different 2nd stage the given payload.   Any ideas?

Five segment booster is probably too much horse for only 8-9 tonnes to LEO.  Remove a segment, then top the booster with an RP/LOX stage powered by an RD-0120 or something like it.  That would do the trick, though the RD-0120 verniers would have to provide a good bit of the final delta-v to keep g-forces down. 

A Zenit 2/3 second stage would actually be about the right size for this application.  Topping it with a Centaur would turn this into an EELV Medium class rocket able to lift 15 tonnes to LEO or 6 tonnes to GTO.

Or, consider an alternative using all-U.S. engines.  Top a four segment booster with a new 60-ish tonne LH2 stage powered by six RL-10 engines.  That by itself would lift 15+ tonnes to LEO or 6 tonnes to GTO.

 - Ed Kyle

[Patchouli]

Seems the last flight of the LR-91 and LR-87 was in 2005 so the tooling may still exist and the engine may have been evolved to modern production techniques.

A two engine version burning hydrogen the LR-87lh2 might fit the bill.

http://www.astronautix.com/engines/lr87lh2.htm

As far as cheapness goes it would be hard to beat the Zenit second stage which might actually make this a fairly cost effective LV.

[Downix]

Upper stage using LR-91 engines, two nozzle configuration (tested and verified, technically a vac-optimized form of LR-87).  Proven system, solid reputation, and would give a ready launch ability lacking from Hydrolox setups.  Would eliminate biggest concern over hypergolic systems, as the engines would be lit at altitude.  System already man-tested with Gemini program.  Ran this though calc awhile back, could pull off with a 4-seg a 26 tonne to ISS orbit.  With 5-seg I'll need to re-calc it, but likely looking at closer to 30 tonne.  Would not be good for GEO, but substituting the Titan Centaur or SEC/DEC from Atlas and you would gain a GEO payload in excess of 13 metric tons, higher than the Delta IV Heavy.

Will look into it, LR-87 is a rock solid engine.
Is this what your talking about?
http://heroicrelics.org/info/titan-i/titan-i-stage-2-engine.html

That's the LR-91, which is a single nozzle version of the LR-87 with altitude-optimized nozzle.  What I am saying here is a two-nozzle system with that nozzle extension on them.

Was reading the Liberty thread, how about an Aerojet NK43 (AJ26-59?).  Might be overkill?

I actually did a test of this, and it would have worked beautifully, even with the 4-segment shuttle solid.  A single AJ26-59 would have gotten it to 23 tonnes to ISS from a 4-segment, 25.5 tonnes with 5.

[Patchouli]

I actually did a test of this, and it would have worked beautifully, even with the 4-segment shuttle solid.  A single AJ26-59 would have gotten it to 23 tonnes to ISS from a 4-segment, 25.5 tonnes with 5.

That would even lift Orion though probably need to subtract some mass for carrying the LAS for the SRB burn but the five segment should still meet the payload requirement.

I'm surprised they didn't use that combination as it probably would be significantly cheaper then adopting the Araine 5 core.

[edkyle99]

Five segment booster is probably too much horse for only 8-9 tonnes to LEO.  Remove a segment, then top the booster with an RP/LOX stage powered by an RD-0120 or something like it.  That would do the trick, though the RD-0120 verniers would have to provide a good bit of the final delta-v to keep g-forces down. 

A Zenit 2/3 second stage would actually be about the right size for this application.  Topping it with a Centaur would turn this into an EELV Medium class rocket able to lift 15 tonnes to LEO or 6 tonnes to GTO.

Or, consider an alternative using all-U.S. engines.  Top a four segment booster with a new 60-ish tonne LH2 stage powered by six RL-10 engines.  That by itself would lift 15+ tonnes to LEO or 6 tonnes to GTO.

 - Ed Kyle

Either one of these concepts could have "skinnier" upper stages than either Ares I or Liberty.  Zenit/Antares are only slightly fatter than a five segment booster (3.9 versus 3.71 meters).    A smaller LH2 stage could be 5 meters or less in diameter.

 - Ed Kyle

[Patchouli]

Either one of these concepts could have "skinnier" upper stages than either Ares I or Liberty.  Zenit/Antares are only slightly fatter than a five segment booster (3.9 versus 3.71 meters).    A smaller LH2 stage could be 5 meters or less in diameter.

 - Ed Kyle

This shows Ares I with a different upper stage proposed as an LV for Dream Chaser before they settled on Atlas V.
Not sure if that's an in house hybrid second stage or some sorta liquid second stage but it appears to have a third stage as well.

The Zenit second stage looks to be a good fit as it is indeed very close to the SRB diameter.

[Prober]

Either one of these concepts could have "skinnier" upper stages than either Ares I or Liberty.  Zenit/Antares are only slightly fatter than a five segment booster (3.9 versus 3.71 meters).    A smaller LH2 stage could be 5 meters or less in diameter.

 - Ed Kyle

This shows Ares I with a different upper stage proposed as an LV for Dream Chaser before they settled on Atlas V.
Not sure if that's an in house hybrid second stage or some sorta liquid second stage but it appears to have a third stage as well.

The Zenit second stage looks to be a good fit as it is indeed very close to the SRB diameter.

Interesting pics with the Dream Chaser on there !  Might be a little too tall

Believe atm my thinking; we are closer to looking like the 4 seg + mesh interstate (close visual) needs more research and redo.

[Prober]

Five segment booster is probably too much horse for only 8-9 tonnes to LEO.  Remove a segment, then top the booster with an RP/LOX stage powered by an RD-0120 or something like it.  That would do the trick, though the RD-0120 verniers would have to provide a good bit of the final delta-v to keep g-forces down. 

A Zenit 2/3 second stage would actually be about the right size for this application.  Topping it with a Centaur would turn this into an EELV Medium class rocket able to lift 15 tonnes to LEO or 6 tonnes to GTO.

Or, consider an alternative using all-U.S. engines.  Top a four segment booster with a new 60-ish tonne LH2 stage powered by six RL-10 engines.  That by itself would lift 15+ tonnes to LEO or 6 tonnes to GTO.

 - Ed Kyle

Either one of these concepts could have "skinnier" upper stages than either Ares I or Liberty.  Zenit/Antares are only slightly fatter than a five segment booster (3.9 versus 3.71 meters).    A smaller LH2 stage could be 5 meters or less in diameter.

 - Ed Kyle

How about the same size or larger as the first stage.   Try to keep the height of the launcher down.

[Prober]

More cleanup needed but a start...

[edkyle99]

How about the same size or larger as the first stage.   Try to keep the height of the launcher down?

If the goal is to minimize height, and the payload goal is only 18,000 lbs to LEO (8.2 tonnes), a three-segment booster topped by a relatively small second stage would suffice.  The second stage could be a 120 tonne RD-0120 powered unit that would be about 13.8 meters long and 3.9 meters diameter.  The entire rocket would stand perhaps 40 meters not including payload, or maybe 55 meters including payload, just over half as tall as Ares I/Orion.  The big challenge would be matching the SRB thrust to the upper composite to keep acceleration tolerable.

Another alternative would be a 3-SB topped by a 4xRL10 LH2 stage that weighed about 44 tonnes.  Such a stage could be 4 meters diameter and probably 15 meters long.  This rocket would stand a couple of meters taller than the RD-0120 rocket, but would lift 10 tonnes to LEO.

Etc.

 - Ed Kyle

[edkyle99]

I'm still not sure what the goal is, but if the intent is to use five segment booster topped by a different upper stage, here are a couple of ideas. 

First, note that five segment booster shouldn't be used unless the payload is going to be heavy.  This is, after all, the world's most powerful rocket motor.  It shouldn't be used to lift just 8.2 tonnes to LEO.  Falcon 9 can do that.

Speaking of Falcon 9, a Merlin Vacuum powered second stage atop a five segment booster can be considered.  Four Merlin Vacs, perhaps with shorter nozzles than on Falcon 9, would result in 13 or more tonnes to LEO.  Adding a third stage very similar to the Falcon 9 second stage would result in a rocket able to lift 22 or more tonnes to LEO or 8 tonnes to GTO.  Not too shabby for a rocket that uses only low energy propellants.  This rocket would stand about as tall as Ares I if the upper stages were about the same diameter as the booster.

An all-solid alternative might use a 5-seg first stage, a 2-seg second stage, a Castor 120 type third stage, and a Castor 30XL type fourth stage to lift 17 tonnes to LEO.  ATK might call it "Athena V".    (oops, already used!  http://content.lib.utah.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/GRMB&CISOPTR=194&CISOBOX=1&REC=17  )

 - Ed Kyle