Stratolaunch: General Company and Development Updates and Discussions

[Danderman]

One possible LV for Stratolauncher is 1xBE4 1st stage  + BE3 US. Blue would even build it for them. Should be good for 10t LEO.
 Being air launched a RLV booster could land downrange on land.


Still have issue of boiloff during flight to launch area.

I hate to pollute threads with fankwank designs, but would it be possible for a stretched New Shepard to be launched from a Stratocasterlauncher into LEO and still manage a payload?

[parabolicarc]

Why VG bought their own 747 for Launcherone instead of using ROC ? Failure of business cooperation?

Because they already owned it. It was part of the Virgin Atlantic fleet. It's just shuffling money between corporations owned by the same people.

If VG leased ROC, they would have to give Northrop Grumman real money.

Virgin is retiring its 747s. The aircraft was due to be retired from the Heathrow route. It's airworthiness certificate was expiring in December. That explains why its going into the hangar for an overhaul. It's not just for the mods needed for LauncherOne. My guess is that the overhaul needed to renew its airworthiness certificate will now be charged to Virgin Galactic.

[parabolicarc]

You do have to wonder. Stratolaunch has a plane with no LV. Stratolaunch could have turned to VG for a LV.

I don't think Paul Allen is a big of Richard Branson.

[Bubbinski]

How close is the carrier aircraft to being finished?

[Lars-J]

One possible LV for Stratolauncher is 1xBE4 1st stage  + BE3 US. Blue would even build it for them. Should be good for 10t LEO.
 Being air launched a RLV booster could land downrange on land.


Still have issue of boiloff during flight to launch area.

More than that... Air launching liquid powered LVs imposes a lot of constrains on the rocket... The additional loads that it needs to support (being hung horizontally *fully* loaded) are drastic, which I think is why SpaceX decided to not continue the partnership.

[Prober]

One possible LV for Stratolauncher is 1xBE4 1st stage  + BE3 US. Blue would even build it for them. Should be good for 10t LEO.
 Being air launched a RLV booster could land downrange on land.


Still have issue of boiloff during flight to launch area.

I hate to pollute threads with fankwank designs, but would it be possible for a stretched New Shepard to be launched from a Stratocasterlauncher into LEO and still manage a payload?

had the same idea
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=27520.msg1449539#msg1449539

[Danderman]

More than that... Air launching liquid powered LVs imposes a lot of constrains on the rocket... The additional loads that it needs to support (being hung horizontally *fully* loaded) are drastic, which I think is why SpaceX decided to not continue the partnership.

This issue came up a couple of years ago, and I think the consensus at the time was  .... not. As in, imparting loads on a fuelled horizontal rocket was not an unworkable issue.

[Danderman]

Paul Allen should sit down with Bezo's and maybe Stratolaunch could drop a new Shepard launcher

Could get a decent payload to orbit.

New Shephard is too small to reach orbital velocity, even launched from the Stratolaunch carrier.  If New Shephard was scaled up by a factor of 5, then it could do as you suggest.  Since there are few potential rocket partners, I'm sure there have been phone calls.

I would like to see the math on this.

I don't even know the mass ratio for NS, so I don't see how this determined.

[HMXHMX]

Paul Allen should sit down with Bezo's and maybe Stratolaunch could drop a new Shepard launcher

Could get a decent payload to orbit.

New Shephard is too small to reach orbital velocity, even launched from the Stratolaunch carrier.  If New Shephard was scaled up by a factor of 5, then it could do as you suggest.  Since there are few potential rocket partners, I'm sure there have been phone calls.

I would like to see the math on this.

I don't even know the mass ratio for NS, so I don't see how this determined.

NS as currently built, in my opinion based on speculative weights determined by knowing depth of throttle of the BE-3, can't make it to orbit even if air-launched.  But an expendable BS-3 powered stage, optimally designed, easily could do so.

[Danderman]

Paul Allen should sit down with Bezo's and maybe Stratolaunch could drop a new Shepard launcher

Could get a decent payload to orbit.

New Shephard is too small to reach orbital velocity, even launched from the Stratolaunch carrier.  If New Shephard was scaled up by a factor of 5, then it could do as you suggest.  Since there are few potential rocket partners, I'm sure there have been phone calls.

I would like to see the math on this.

I don't even know the mass ratio for NS, so I don't see how this determined.

NS as currently built, in my opinion based on speculative weights determined by knowing depth of throttle of the BE-3, can't make it to orbit even if air-launched.  But an expendable BS-3 powered stage, optimally designed, easily could do so.

Earlier on, I suggested that the stage be lengthened as one means of generating more Delta-V.

And yes, removal of all hardware required for re-use not necessary for "normal" flight would be assumed.

Since we don't know actual masses of NS components, it would be difficult to estimate payload capability of the Stratolauncher/NS combination.

[sanman]

Now that VTVL looks to be moving much faster than everything else, then what's so special about the Stratolaunch approach that makes it worth saving? What could it do that others might not be able to do?

I'm thinking the aircraft needs to be adapted for ferrying rocket stages rather than transporting them by highway.

[Comga]

Paul Allen should sit down with Bezo's and maybe Stratolaunch could drop a new Shepard launcher

Could get a decent payload to orbit.

New Shephard is too small to reach orbital velocity, even launched from the Stratolaunch carrier.  If New Shephard was scaled up by a factor of 5, then it could do as you suggest.  Since there are few potential rocket partners, I'm sure there have been phone calls.

I would like to see the math on this.

I don't even know the mass ratio for NS, so I don't see how this determined.

You don't need the mass ratio and you can do the math in your head.
New Shepherd can reach 100 km.  Falling from 100 km in a vacuum takes about 150 sec. ( sqrt(100,000*2/g=10) )
Velocity would be about 1.5 km/sec which is about a fifth of orbital speed or about 4% of the energy.
If gravity and aerodynamic losses double this it is still an order of magnitude shy.

Not only are rockets not Legos, but Legos are not rockets.

[Danderman]

You don't need the mass ratio and you can do the math in your head.
New Shepherd can reach 100 km.  Falling from 100 km in a vacuum takes about 150 sec. ( sqrt(100,000*2/g=10) )
Velocity would be about 1.5 km/sec which is about a fifth of orbital speed or about 4% of the energy.
If gravity and aerodynamic losses double this it is still an order of magnitude shy.

A NS with appropriate throttling capability and a mass ratio better than .95 could clearly attain orbit if ground launched, so the assertion above is clearly not true.  Moreover,  NS not only propels itself to 100 km, but carries a non-trivial mass on its nose, in the form of a crew capsule. And, we don't know the mass ratio of a NS with lengthened prop tanks.

Rather than focus on the Lego aspect, the question is really whether a a single stage LH2 powered rocket could take payloads to orbit via airlaunch.

[HMXHMX]

You don't need the mass ratio and you can do the math in your head.
New Shepherd can reach 100 km.  Falling from 100 km in a vacuum takes about 150 sec. ( sqrt(100,000*2/g=10) )
Velocity would be about 1.5 km/sec which is about a fifth of orbital speed or about 4% of the energy.
If gravity and aerodynamic losses double this it is still an order of magnitude shy.

A NS with appropriate throttling capability and a mass ratio better than .95 could clearly attain orbit if ground launched, so the assertion above is clearly not true.  Moreover,  NS not only propels itself to 100 km, but carries a non-trivial mass on its nose, in the form of a crew capsule. And, we don't know the mass ratio of a NS with lengthened prop tanks.

Rather than focus on the Lego aspect, the question is really whether a a single stage LH2 powered rocket could take payloads to orbit via airlaunch.

It needn't even be a PMF of 0.9 to get to LEO. 

I did this very vehicle design for a proprietary customer two years ago, and it was easy enough to make work with substantial payload from the Roc aircraft.  But given the known price of the BE-3 it wasn't economical.

[LouScheffer]

NS as currently built, in my opinion based on speculative weights determined by knowing depth of throttle of the BE-3, can't make it to orbit even if air-launched.  But an expendable BS-3 powered stage, optimally designed, easily could do so.

Since we don't know actual masses of NS components, it would be difficult to estimate payload capability of the Stratolauncher/NS combination.

But we *do* know the masses of the NS components to fair accuracy - see these calculations:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38873.msg1450736#msg1450736

These say that New Shepard, as is, can't make orbit.  Say a 450 ISP (since it's a high altitude nozzle) and a mass fraction of about 3, gives a delta V of 4.8 km/sec, not enough for orbit even adding the speed of the plane.  (you need more than 7 km/sec).

But as HMXHMX says, a pretty conservative conventional design could do so.  Assuming a PMF of 0.9 and 450 ISP, you get a delta V of 11 km/sec.  This will clearly work, even once drag and gravity losses are included.

[Nomadd]

Now that VTVL looks to be moving much faster than everything else, then what's so special about the Stratolaunch approach that makes it worth saving? What could it do that others might not be able to do?

I'm thinking the aircraft needs to be adapted for ferrying rocket stages rather than transporting them by highway.

  How does VTVL impact Stratolaunch in any way? The ability to recover a rocket not only has nothing to do with increasing it's capability. It actually decreases it quite a bit.

[jongoff]

Now that VTVL looks to be moving much faster than everything else, then what's so special about the Stratolaunch approach that makes it worth saving? What could it do that others might not be able to do?

I'm thinking the aircraft needs to be adapted for ferrying rocket stages rather than transporting them by highway.

  How does VTVL impact Stratolaunch in any way? The ability to recover a rocket not only has nothing to do with increasing it's capability. It actually decreases it quite a bit.

It's worth pointing out that you can combine VTVL and air-launch (technically it would be Air-launched/Vertical Landing--ALVL) just fine, and get a lot of the benefits of both air-launch and VTVL without needing a boostback burn or a drone ship...

~Jon

[meekGee]

Now that VTVL looks to be moving much faster than everything else, then what's so special about the Stratolaunch approach that makes it worth saving? What could it do that others might not be able to do?

I'm thinking the aircraft needs to be adapted for ferrying rocket stages rather than transporting them by highway.

  How does VTVL impact Stratolaunch in any way? The ability to recover a rocket not only has nothing to do with increasing it's capability. It actually decreases it quite a bit.

It's worth pointing out that you can combine VTVL and air-launch (technically it would be Air-launched/Vertical Landing--ALVL) just fine, and get a lot of the benefits of both air-launch and VTVL without needing a boostback burn or a drone ship...

~Jon

To exhaust all options, you can launch from a barge and fly back to land.

(And I'm not even going to mention launching from a barge and capturing the empty stage mid-air...) 

[Danderman]

Now that VTVL looks to be moving much faster than everything else, then what's so special about the Stratolaunch approach that makes it worth saving? What could it do that others might not be able to do?

I'm thinking the aircraft needs to be adapted for ferrying rocket stages rather than transporting them by highway.

  How does VTVL impact Stratolaunch in any way? The ability to recover a rocket not only has nothing to do with increasing it's capability. It actually decreases it quite a bit.

It's worth pointing out that you can combine VTVL and air-launch (technically it would be Air-launched/Vertical Landing--ALVL) just fine, and get a lot of the benefits of both air-launch and VTVL without needing a boostback burn or a drone ship...

~Jon

Even better, with air launch, you don't need a barge, you can select a launch point where landing on actual land is possible for the returning first stage.

[Robotbeat]

Now that VTVL looks to be moving much faster than everything else, then what's so special about the Stratolaunch approach that makes it worth saving? What could it do that others might not be able to do?

I'm thinking the aircraft needs to be adapted for ferrying rocket stages rather than transporting them by highway.
 The

  How does VTVL impact Stratolaunch in any way? The ability to recover a rocket not only has nothing to do with increasing it's capability. It actually decreases it quite a bit.

It's worth pointing out that you can combine VTVL and air-launch (technically it would be Air-launched/Vertical Landing--ALVL) just fine, and get a lot of the benefits of both air-launch and VTVL without needing a boostback burn or a drone ship...

~Jon

Even better, with air launch, you don't need a barge, you can select a launch point where landing on actual land is possible for the returning first stage.

That is what Jon said.