Stratolaunch: General Company and Development Updates and Discussions

[simonbp]

Or the front is made of foam.

Well, it kinda is. The third stage is liquid (hinted at being CH4/LOX above) and has a lot of empty space to accommodate the payload. So, considering how high-density the solid first and secon stages are, the center of mass is pretty far back...

[kch]

For reference, the sites that Pegasus launches have in the past been based from include Vanderburg, Cape Canaveral, and Wallops. Any others?

Of course, there are a lot more runways that you can fit an L-1011 on than Stratolaunch's Birdzilla.

Kwaj and the Canary Islands.   

[joek]

For reference, the sites that Pegasus launches have in the past been based from include Vanderburg, Cape Canaveral, and Wallops. Any others?

As of 2009, a total of six sites.  from Just Add Sun: The Story of the 40th Flight of Pegasus:

Pegasus has launched from six different locations around the world: Dryden Flight Research Facility (DFRF); VAFB; Wallops Flight Facility (WFF); Cape Canaveral Air Force Station (CCAFS); Gando Air Force Base, Gran Canaria, Spain; and Kwajalein, Marshall Islands.

[edkyle99]

I'm still skeptical that this LV has the wings placed appropriately for air launch, they just seem to be located WAAAY too far back for that. But perhaps it is just an artist impressions. Or the front is made of foam.

EDIT: compare the above image with the Pegasus XL below:

Notice first the much different aspect ratio.  The Stratolaunch rocket is fatter and shorter, relatively speaking.  Pegasus ended up looking like it did in part because it was modeled after the X-15 that had previously been drop launched from the B-52, and in part because the Orion 50 motors were derived from an already developed land launch missile.

Next notice that the first stage is at least twice as long, and maybe longer, than the second stage.  The third stage will be a fraction of the first stage weight, of course, so most of the mass, maybe 2/3rd to 3/4ths of it, will be in that first stage.  The center of mass for the entire rocket is going to be back there somewhere. 

Finally, note the different horizontal stabilizer setup.  Pegasus uses a standard arrangement, while Stratolaunch has a "V"-shaped setup.  That changes the resulting center of pressure.  Also, as Jim noted, the bigger fairing has an important effect.  For a rocket, it is best to have the CP as far back as possible, of course.

Then there are the unknowns about those first two stages (not to mention the third stage), whether they are steel or composite case motors.   Etc.

 - Ed Kyle

[sdsds]

I'm still skeptical that this LV has the wings placed appropriately for air launch

I'm skeptical of your skepticism. I don't want to insult you if you were being genuine, but ... please consider two interpretations of what you wrote:

A) The vehicle designers have placed the wings inappropriately, or
B) The rendering of the vehicle does not accurately represent the design.

Either one of those if stated bluntly could be interpreted as being disrespectful of Orbital.

they just seem to be located WAAAY too far back for that.

The phrase "for that" might imply they are not too far back for some other use. Are you speculating there is an unannounced use for the vehicle?

In any case, in addition to all the good responses your post has received, I refer you back to a prior exchange in this thread:

the wing [ ... ] is ill-suited to act like the Pegasus wing to turn the flight path angle since it is not at the Cg of the launch vehicle.

Oh?  How do you know that?

[Lars_J]

I'm still skeptical that this LV has the wings placed appropriately for air launch

I'm skeptical of your skepticism. I don't want to insult you if you were being genuine, but ... please consider two interpretations of what you wrote:

A) The vehicle designers have placed the wings inappropriately, or
B) The rendering of the vehicle does not accurately represent the design.

Either one of those if stated bluntly could be interpreted as being disrespectful of Orbital.

It's cute that you are so concerned about what the Stratolauncher partners (all quite accomplished in their fields) thinks of me (a decisively non-expert armchair observer on an internet forum) and my off-the-wall thinking.

No, I was simply applying what antonoie posted (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=27520.msg1028020#msg1028020), and then comparing this LV to Pegasus, and noting the difference.

They know what they are doing, I have no doubt. But I *am* surprised that you put so much stock in these very early renderings, though. I look forward to seeing more details in the future.

In any case, in addition to all the good responses your post has received, I refer you back to a prior exchange in this thread:

Yes, I know. I was not the only one with that "gut reaction".

So where is your outrage about HMXHMX being "disrespectful"?

[sdsds]

[1] They know what they are doing
[2] I look forward to seeing more details in the future.

[1] Agreed! [2] Me too!

So where is your outrage about HMXHMX being "disrespectful"

Ha ha ha! At least this time I know you must be joking!

[Rocket Science]

Hey Lars,
If you google images of early  SSTO or flyback boosters you can see similar wing planforms. In place of canards for a flyback you will be generating a lifting body force from the nose from its angle of attack to the relative airflow. At high mach the wing area should suffice while keeping drag down...

http://www.dlr.de/irs/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-7629/12934_read-32489/

[Lars_J]

Hey Lars,
If you google images of early  SSTO or flyback boosters you can see similar wing planforms. In place of canards for a flyback you will be generating a lifting body force from the nose from its angle of attack to the relative airflow. At high mach the wing area should suffice while keeping drag down...

http://www.dlr.de/irs/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-7629/12934_read-32489/

Thanks! I'll check it out.

[Lar]

So where is your outrage about HMXHMX being "disrespectful"

Ha ha ha! At least this time I know you must be joking!

I think[1] that's intra-rocket-scientist-banter rather than dissing. So he must have been.

1 - But I could be confused.

[HMXHMX]

So where is your outrage about HMXHMX being "disrespectful"

Ha ha ha! At least this time I know you must be joking!

I think[1] that's intra-rocket-scientist-banter rather than dissing. So he must have been.

1 - But I could be confused.

Hey, Antonio's the one with the shiny PhD, so you can call him a rocket scientist.  I'm just an ole country rocket engineer. 

[a_langwich]

Here's the difference.  Stratolaunch could, in theory, launch to any orbital inclination from just one base (any inclination higher than the base latitude that is).  No need for an East and a West coast site.  KSC or the Cape, or anyplace on the East Coast with a big enough runway, could do it all.

 - Ed Kyle

Why is this more true of Stratolaunch than Pegasus?  The increased performance of the rocket? 

Are there no concerns for either of these about range safety, debris fields, or population centers?  With respect to commercial airports, surely the FAA gives a stink-eye to carrying around a very large, potentially explosive, bomb on runways/taxiways crowded with people-carriers?

[RocketmanUS]

Here's the difference.  Stratolaunch could, in theory, launch to any orbital inclination from just one base (any inclination higher than the base latitude that is).  No need for an East and a West coast site.  KSC or the Cape, or anyplace on the East Coast with a big enough runway, could do it all.

 - Ed Kyle

Why is this more true of Stratolaunch than Pegasus?  The increased performance of the rocket? 

Are there no concerns for either of these about range safety, debris fields, or population centers?  With respect to commercial airports, surely the FAA gives a stink-eye to carrying around a very large, potentially explosive, bomb on runways/taxiways crowded with people-carriers?

From a runway near the ocean the carrier plane would fly over the ocean and then release the rocket. With the range of the carrier plane on a given day they could fly the rocket to a launch area over the ocean away from air traffic and boats for the needed launch window of the payload. They would be above the weather and away from population.
 
The plane could be ready with another rocket in 24 hours. There will be down time for scheduled maintenance after so many hours of operation.

[edkyle99]

Why is this more true of Stratolaunch than Pegasus?  The increased performance of the rocket? 

It is not more true in theory, but Orbital has already long-ago decided to stick to existing ranges.  Pegasus will soon likely be shelved, so it will never "fly free", so to speak.  Stratolaunch can, and should in my opinion, choose a different method of operation. 

 - Ed Kyle

[simonbp]

With the twin solid stages, they can't be too creative with the ranges, as they still need ocean downrange for the stages to land in. However, basing at Cape Canaveral would allow them to use both the SLF and the payload integration facilities. The aircraft could then go fly south of the Eastern Range if that's an issue.

[edkyle99]

An interesting spot, about which I admittedly know little, is Rafael Hernandez International Airport near Aquadilla, Puerto Rico.  http://goo.gl/maps/s8FUx This place used to be a SAC base during the Cold War, when it was known as Ramey Air Force Base.  It has a big runway, built for B-36s and B-52s loaded with Cold War payloads.  You can still see where they parked the BUFFs.

What is interesting is that a Stratolaunch aircraft taking off from Aquadilla would be able to nearly mimic Kourou's launch azimuths, to GTO, sun sync, and LEO/ISS, etc..  If Arianespace can drop stages on these routes, then so could Stratolaunch.

There must be other places like this, where one base could support all of the important mission orbits.

 - Ed Kyle

[MP99]

An interesting spot, about which I admittedly know little, is Rafael Hernandez International Airport near Aquadilla, Puerto Rico.  http://goo.gl/maps/s8FUx This place used to be a SAC base during the Cold War, when it was known as Ramey Air Force Base.  It has a big runway, built for B-36s and B-52s loaded with Cold War payloads.  You can still see where they parked the BUFFs.

What is interesting is that a Stratolaunch aircraft taking off from Aquadilla would be able to nearly mimic Kourou's launch azimuths, to GTO, sun sync, and LEO/ISS, etc..  If Arianespace can drop stages on these routes, then so could Stratolaunch.

There must be other places like this, where one base could support all of the important mission orbits.

 - Ed Kyle

Would it make sense to integrate the payload at KSC, fly to Aquadilla to refuel the carrier, then take off again to launch?

I'm guessing not, as the payload wants to see as little messing about as possible, and presumably will have time constraints, too.

cheers, Martin

[edkyle99]

An interesting spot, about which I admittedly know little, is Rafael Hernandez International Airport near Aquadilla, Puerto Rico.  http://goo.gl/maps/s8FUx This place used to be a SAC base during the Cold War, when it was known as Ramey Air Force Base.  It has a big runway, built for B-36s and B-52s loaded with Cold War payloads.  You can still see where they parked the BUFFs.

What is interesting is that a Stratolaunch aircraft taking off from Aquadilla would be able to nearly mimic Kourou's launch azimuths, to GTO, sun sync, and LEO/ISS, etc..  If Arianespace can drop stages on these routes, then so could Stratolaunch.

There must be other places like this, where one base could support all of the important mission orbits.

 - Ed Kyle

Would it make sense to integrate the payload at KSC, fly to Aquadilla to refuel the carrier, then take off again to launch?

I'm guessing not, as the payload wants to see as little messing about as possible, and presumably will have time constraints, too.

cheers, Martin

Orbital does that with Pegasus, processing the payload at Vandenberg and then flying to a launch base, but I think that long term a better single-base solution would be to do everything in one place. 

 - Ed Kyle

[RocketmanUS]

An interesting spot, about which I admittedly know little, is Rafael Hernandez International Airport near Aquadilla, Puerto Rico.  http://goo.gl/maps/s8FUx This place used to be a SAC base during the Cold War, when it was known as Ramey Air Force Base.  It has a big runway, built for B-36s and B-52s loaded with Cold War payloads.  You can still see where they parked the BUFFs.

What is interesting is that a Stratolaunch aircraft taking off from Aquadilla would be able to nearly mimic Kourou's launch azimuths, to GTO, sun sync, and LEO/ISS, etc..  If Arianespace can drop stages on these routes, then so could Stratolaunch.

There must be other places like this, where one base could support all of the important mission orbits.

 - Ed Kyle

Would it make sense to integrate the payload at KSC, fly to Aquadilla to refuel the carrier, then take off again to launch?

I'm guessing not, as the payload wants to see as little messing about as possible, and presumably will have time constraints, too.

cheers, Martin

Orbital does that with Pegasus, processing the payload at Vandenberg and then flying to a launch base, but I think that long term a better single-base solution would be to do everything in one place. 

 - Ed Kyle

If all goes well and they have a high enough flight rate I would think they would have two bases. One at Florida and the other in Southern California. That would give them two options and if one site had to bad of weather to take off then they could use the other site.

Could there be a possible Australian site?

[MP99]

An interesting spot, about which I admittedly know little, is Rafael Hernandez International Airport near Aquadilla, Puerto Rico.  http://goo.gl/maps/s8FUx This place used to be a SAC base during the Cold War, when it was known as Ramey Air Force Base.  It has a big runway, built for B-36s and B-52s loaded with Cold War payloads.  You can still see where they parked the BUFFs.

What is interesting is that a Stratolaunch aircraft taking off from Aquadilla would be able to nearly mimic Kourou's launch azimuths, to GTO, sun sync, and LEO/ISS, etc..  If Arianespace can drop stages on these routes, then so could Stratolaunch.

There must be other places like this, where one base could support all of the important mission orbits.

Would it make sense to integrate the payload at KSC, fly to Aquadilla to refuel the carrier, then take off again to launch?

I'm guessing not, as the payload wants to see as little messing about as possible, and presumably will have time constraints, too.

Orbital does that with Pegasus, processing the payload at Vandenberg and then flying to a launch base, but I think that long term a better single-base solution would be to do everything in one place. 

Thanks.

Single-base makes sense if they intend to fly all azimuths from one location. If they want to offer launches based from various locations, then that implies they need mobile payload processing facilities (or to stage out of KSC / Vandenberg / whatever facility is closest).

Almost makes you wonder about as stragey of: "Hey, don't worry about shipping your payload to the launch site. We'll come to you, integrate somewhere near the factory, then fly it away and launch from the nearest safe location."

Of course, that would imply flying huge solid stages into whatever runway was large enough to accommodate the carrier. Doesn't sound realistic.

cheers, Martin