Stratolaunch: General Company and Development Updates and Discussions

[edkyle99]

SL's only option is a liquid, employing one or two stages.

A four stage solid (composite case type), or a three stage solid with a pressure fed fourth stage, might get the job (6.1 tonnes payload) done for 222 tonnes GLOW.  Some existing motors might be used, but some new ones would also be needed.

 - Ed Kyle

[Blackjax]

There is no vendor who has the capability to develop the hybrids (at least three separate stages) necessary to launch the reference payload.  And from what I know of large hybrids, there never will be.  SL's only option is a liquid, employing one or two stages.

This does beg the question...what are the most likely motor options Orbital might consider for this purpose? 

[HMXHMX]

SL's only option is a liquid, employing one or two stages.

A four stage solid (composite case type), or a three stage solid with a pressure fed fourth stage, might get the job (6.1 tonnes payload) done for 222 tonnes GLOW.  Some existing motors might be used, but some new ones would also be needed.

 - Ed Kyle

Technically, yes, I agree.  But I don't believe this will meet the customer's cost goals.  At least it didn't when I last participated in similar trades, a few years ago.

[iamlucky13]

I guess if more parties bow out they could consider building their own rocket using their Hybrid technology...

Uhm who's "hybrid" technology? I don't think anyone on the StratoLaunch program actually "does" hybrids. (I'm also very skeptical that hybrids would have the needed performance, not any of the ones "in-production" anyway. It might be possible to get what you want out of Paraffin/H2O2 hybrids or Paraffin/LOx but none of the others are on that level of performance)

Randy

Hey Randy,
I'm thinking Burt Rutan with his "old company" Scaled Composites and their motor befopre he sold it. Perhaps there is a deal of last resort that can be made. SpaceDev proposed some large hybrid boosters for their then Dream Chaser about 10 years back or so with Benson Space... I'm sure you remember them...

SpaceDev/Sierra Nevada Corp built the motors. They obviously worked closely with Scaled and could do so again, but it wasn't Scaled that owned the motor design.

And the increase in size would be a pretty substantial project. SpaceShipTwo is less than 40,000 pounds, and a much lower proportion of its weight is the motor compared to an orbital rocket. Stratolaunch is talking about a booster closing in on 500,000 pounds.

I don't know a whole lot about hybrids, but my gut tells me this isn't likely. If they stick with a liquid or solid, there are engine options that are well-tested in the size range necessary.


And sorry to jump back several pages since my last visit, but...

Or they may be concerned that participating in Stratolaunch is a risk. Remember when Stratolaunch was announced there were suggestions that SpaceX was rather hands off. They'd sell their rocket, but Stratolaunch was taking the risk and would reap most of the rewards if successful.

But by your definition SpaceX was under no risk at all. 

I feel compelled to point out that nowhere did I suggest SpaceX was under no risk at all. Any large project involves some level of risk for participants, even if they're only participating as a supplier.

[RanulfC]

... And speaking of the "Antares" per se... It's using "stockpiled" NK-33s/AJ26-62s which I am "assuming" means a limited supply. What are the odds Aerojet can/would build more if needed? I can't seem to find any numbers of available NK-43s/AJ26-61s are there any for use? Anyone know if the NKs were ever tested with alternate propellants?

Since the AJ26-61 was the rocket of the Kristel proposal, I guess they do have them available.

I HIGHLY suspect this would be a good case for TAN (Thrust Augmentation Nozzle) tech. Just a quick "overview" look points to this being a VERY good project for Aerojet as well as Orbital if this is done right

Since they are launching from certain height, and the advantage is that you can use higher expansion (thus the NK-43), I highly doubt that you could get much benefit from TAN. The whole point is to use a highly expanded nozzle, that would suffer from chaotic under-expansion, and fill it with additional thrust.

Actually the TAN idea was part of the reason for asking if the NKs had been run on any "alternate" propellants
AKA if you use LOX/Propane you could use TAN w/kerosene for added initial thrust, etc

TAN, (though I probably should call it something different since its not ALL about "thrust augmentation"... ) has been "in-work" with Aerojet for a long, long time and they have applied it to everything from non-compensated nozzels to aerospike nozzles and ED-space only nozzles. The "trick" here is though that they have only actually run tests on the "current" TAN concept for non-compensating nozzles. (Which I kind of wonder about given the amount of patents they took out on every single possible aspect of the technology in the 50s and 60s )

Randy

[RanulfC]

What are the odds Aerojet can/would build more if needed?

100%.  They have stated that they can and will if needed.

Good to know

Any ideas on alternate propellants btw? (I'm going to keep hinting here folks )

Randy

[RanulfC]

Burt is retired from Scale but he is on the board of Stratolaunch. So he does have some input into the project.

Yes, that is correct.  No involvement with Scaled, Board duties at SL.  But that is nowhere like hands-on management which is what many commentators and reporters seem to believe.  Burt is on record earlier this year questioning aspects of the a/c design, too, though his issues were not ever made public, as far as I am aware.

Anyone recall where I posted that paper that had what looked like the "original" aircraft configuration? (either NSF or my computer hates me enough at the moment that any "search" I do locks up)

I don't suppose you can share those "questions" Gary?

Randy

[HMXHMX]

Burt is retired from Scale but he is on the board of Stratolaunch. So he does have some input into the project.

Yes, that is correct.  No involvement with Scaled, Board duties at SL.  But that is nowhere like hands-on management which is what many commentators and reporters seem to believe.  Burt is on record earlier this year questioning aspects of the a/c design, too, though his issues were not ever made public, as far as I am aware.

Anyone recall where I posted that paper that had what looked like the "original" aircraft configuration? (either NSF or my computer hates me enough at the moment that any "search" I do locks up)

I don't suppose you can share those "questions" Gary?

Randy

I don't have any special insight in this case and don't recall having discussed it with Burt; I was just repeating what I had read in an article a few months ago.

[cro-magnon gramps]

just did a post and deleted it, regarding SpaceX leaving Stratolaunch without checking the previous posts; trust NSF guys to be ahead of the curve well done,

Gramps

[yg1968]

An article from a couple of weeks ago on Stratolaunch:
http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20121226/SPACE/121226010/Paul-Allen-s-Stratolaunch-moves-toward-2017-test-launch-from-KSC

[mr. mark]

Stratolaunch's Hanger has been finished and is open for business. Now we have to wonder how long until a launch system is ready.

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2013/02/20/stratolaunch-systems-opens-hangar-in-mojave/

[HMXHMX]

Stratolaunch's Hanger has been finished and is open for business. Now we have to wonder how long until a launch system is ready.

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2013/02/20/stratolaunch-systems-opens-hangar-in-mojave/

A very, very looong time.

[RanulfC]

Stratolaunch's Hanger has been finished and is open for business. Now we have to wonder how long until a launch system is ready.

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2013/02/20/stratolaunch-systems-opens-hangar-in-mojave/

A very, very looong time.

The above quoted Florida Today article says they've got 5 years

Randy

[R7]

The above quoted Florida Today article says they've got 5 years

That should be enough time for SL to realize that liquid booster was a nonstarter (save for scaled up QuickReach maybe) and solids would give them Pegasus XXXL. But great hangar and big plane.

[simonbp]

Not sure when they did it, but the Stratolaunch page has been updated, and so have the renderings of the vehicles. The aircraft looks very different, much less twin 747 than super WhiteKnight. The booster renders don't show the nozzles, but do appear to show three stages of similar length and a much wider faring. IMHO, that (plus the fact that's it Orbital) would imply all solids. But it's probably just notional.

http://www.stratolaunch.com/

[HappyMartian]

Doggon it.  Put a winged vehicle under the StratoLaunch plane, and get on with it.

OK!


"XCOR has developed Nonburnite (tm), a cryo-compatible, inherently non-combustible composite material based on a thermoplastic fluoropolymer resin. Low coefficient of thermal expansion and inherent resistance to microcracking make it well suited to cryogenic tank use and also part of vehicle structure.[11] As of February 2012, Nonburnite will be used in the tanks of the Lynx rocketplane.[12]"

And, "In March 2011, United Launch Alliance (ULA) announced they had entered into a joint-development contract with XCOR for a flight-ready, 25,000 to 30,000 pounds-force (110,000–130,000 N) cryogenic LH2/LOX upper-stage rocket engine. Partially as a result of positive results achieved from an earlier (2010) effort to develop a new aluminum alloy engine nozzle using innovative manufacturing techniques, ULA believes the new engine technology will save several hundred pounds of weight from the large engine and will 'lead to significantly lower-cost and more-capable commercial and US government space flights.'"

and, "The 'multi-year project’s main objective is to produce a flight-ready LOX/LH2 upper-stage engine in the 25,000 to 30,000 lbf (110 to 130 kN)-thrust class that costs significantly less to produce and is easier to operate and integrate than competing engine technologies'"

From: XCOR Aerospace   Wikipedia
At: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XCOR_Aerospace#XCOR.2FULA_liquid-hydrogen.2C_upper-stage_engine_development_project



Note:

"The Lynx rocketplane is a suborbital horizontal-takeoff, horizontal-landing (HTHL),[1] rocket-powered spaceplane being developed by the California-based company XCOR to compete in the emerging suborbital space flight market. The Lynx is projected to carry one pilot, a ticketed passenger, and/or a payload or small satellites above 100 km altitude. As of August 2012, the passenger ticket was projected to cost $95,000."

And, "It was reported in 2010 that the Mark I airframe could use a carbon/epoxy ester composite, and the Mark II a carbon/cyanate with a nickel alloy for the nose and leading-edge thermal protection."

And, "The successor to the Mark II is planned to be a two stage fully reusable orbital vehicle that takes off and lands horizontally."

From: Lynx (spacecraft)    Wikipedia
At: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_%28spacecraft%29


I added the bold.

[Lars_J]

Not sure when they did it, but the Stratolaunch page has been updated, and so have the renderings of the vehicles. The aircraft looks very different, much less twin 747 than super WhiteKnight. The booster renders don't show the nozzles, but do appear to show three stages of similar length and a much wider faring. IMHO, that (plus the fact that's it Orbital) would imply all solids. But it's probably just notional.

http://www.stratolaunch.com/

Wow, that's quite a change. Why buy 747s if you are going to change everything? Even the wings (presumably the primary reason for buying 747s) don't look like 747 wings anymore.

As for the LV - can anyone tell me why air launched rockets need to have such massive wings/fins?

[joek]

Wow, that's quite a change. Why buy 747s if you are going to change everything? Even the wings (presumably the primary reason for buying 747s) don't look like 747 wings anymore.

This gets better and better (pass the popcorn).  I think Dwayne Day nailed it with Egolauncher.

[arachnitect]

As for the LV - can anyone tell me why air launched rockets need to have such massive wings/fins?

There's a thorough discussion of this in the Pegausus Q/A. http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=3911.0

[Nomadd]

Not sure when they did it, but the Stratolaunch page has been updated, and so have the renderings of the vehicles. The aircraft looks very different, much less twin 747 than super WhiteKnight. The booster renders don't show the nozzles, but do appear to show three stages of similar length and a much wider faring. IMHO, that (plus the fact that's it Orbital) would imply all solids. But it's probably just notional.

http://www.stratolaunch.com/

Wow, that's quite a change. Why buy 747s if you are going to change everything? Even the wings (presumably the primary reason for buying 747s) don't look like 747 wings anymore.

 The wings were never intended to be used. They bought the 747s for engines, landing gear, hydraulics and sub systems.