Author Topic: JP Aerospace  (Read 105780 times)

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #100 on: 06/18/2019 07:03 pm »
https://twitter.com/johnmpowell1/status/1141038877550923776

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Ascender 9 floating in the hanger.
#jpaerospace #ascender

https://twitter.com/johnmpowell1/status/1141041894568292352

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There are ten cells inside the Ascender 9 that hold helium. This one is out for testing.
#jpaerospace #ascender

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #101 on: 07/30/2019 07:20 pm »
Their MHD tests appear to be scaling up somewhat ...

https://twitter.com/johnmpowell1/status/1156253010185469952

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MHD test firing number 106. Yes, that is a little red wagon being used as a test stand.
#jpaerospace #magnetohydrodynamics #space

Offline edzieba

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #102 on: 08/05/2019 09:58 am »
Are JPA operating that as an MHD thruster (solid motor exhaust used as a plasma generator and with MHD accelerating the plasma further) or an an MHD generator (solid motor producing moving plasma, which generates current as it passes through the generator and slows down)?

Offline Proponent

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #103 on: 08/05/2019 02:00 pm »
IIRC, on a Space Show interview a few years ago, JP explained that it's a propulsion system rather than a generator.  Although a solid rocket engine produces a low-quality plasma, it does so without requiring any electrical power, which is the big drawback of conventional electrical propulsion.  Accelerating the plasma still requires electrical power, but simply ionizing the working fluid does not.  He had a very humorous way of describing it, which I wish I could remember.

Offline libra

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #104 on: 08/05/2019 02:42 pm »
I never quite understood how this thing is supposed to work. Basically the airlift provides ... lift while a SEP low thrust system gradually accelerates toward orbital speed ?

Can SEP accelerates an airship out of the atmosphere and into orbit ?

Or did I got the concept completely wrong ?

Offline edzieba

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #105 on: 08/06/2019 12:24 pm »
The Ascender's lighter-than-air (at sea level) nature is mostly a red herring. The concept is that it is an extremely lightweight, very enormous, flying wing that starts its acceleration from as high an altitude (lowest air density) as possible. The huge size and light weight means it can achieve aerodynamic flight very close to the Karman line. The sue of low-thrust engines is purely for keeping the weight down, as is the inflatable construction, though the inflatable nature aids of getting the flimsy gossamer thing to altitude to start with.
The big question (other than "who's going to pay for this mad thing?!") is how to traverse the flight regime between floating stationary at neutral buoyancy altitude, and achieving aerodynamic flight (at super to hypersonic speeds) without ripping the fragile craft apart due to being too slow to ascend out of the denser lower atmosphere but too fast to survive in that denser atmosphere.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #106 on: 08/07/2019 01:45 am »
how to traverse the flight regime between floating stationary at neutral buoyancy altitude, and achieving aerodynamic flight (at super to hypersonic speeds) without ripping the fragile craft apart due to being too slow to ascend out of the denser lower atmosphere but too fast to survive in that denser atmosphere.

and their solution is to build a Dark Sky Station where that craft is constructed and serviced.

Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline edzieba

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #107 on: 08/08/2019 12:14 pm »
how to traverse the flight regime between floating stationary at neutral buoyancy altitude, and achieving aerodynamic flight (at super to hypersonic speeds) without ripping the fragile craft apart due to being too slow to ascend out of the denser lower atmosphere but too fast to survive in that denser atmosphere.

and their solution is to build a Dark Sky Station where that craft is constructed and serviced.
That only gets you to the start of the troublesome flight regime.

Offline libra

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #108 on: 08/08/2019 01:59 pm »
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s how to traverse the flight regime between floating stationary at neutral buoyancy altitude, and achieving aerodynamic flight (at super to hypersonic speeds)

Bingo. That's what I had in  mind. The rocket equation being what it is (a b****h) at some point that thing  must accelerates to 9 km per second otherwise = no orbit, only suborbital flight.

So do they intend to push that giant airship to 9 km/s ? or is it only a mothership for a classic expendable upper stage pushing the payload into orbit ?

I can see the point of combining SEP + airship at the edge of the atmosphere... do they intend to accelerate the airship to 9 km/s, but very slowly (thanks SEP very low thrust) to not rip it apart ?

But in this case, how much time would it take to ascent to orbit ? SEP thrust is minuscule, the airship is huge... days, weeks of time ?

Kind of SEP tug "slow boat trajectory" but inside Earth atmosphere, thanks to a breeding with an airship.

I vaguely remember the SEP thrusters are fed via solar cells on the airship upper surface ?

Pretty fun:  solar power + SEP + airship = slow, but "green" launch system into orbit, a bit like sail boats.  Or solar sails, incidentally.

A very strange concept, really... it has long picked my curiosity and has some fascinating aspects (a completely out-of-the-box way of ascending into orbit) but I have serious difficulties understanding whether it is workable or not.


Offline meberbs

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #109 on: 08/08/2019 03:42 pm »
I can see the point of combining SEP + airship at the edge of the atmosphere... do they intend to accelerate the airship to 9 km/s, but very slowly (thanks SEP very low thrust) to not rip it apart ?

But in this case, how much time would it take to ascent to orbit ? SEP thrust is minuscule, the airship is huge... days, weeks of time ?

You should read through their pdf on this, it isn't that long and answers some of your questions. The baseline is to get to orbit in about 9 hours of acceleration.

http://www.jpaerospace.com/images/atohandout.pdf

As I understand it they would use the MHD engines, configured to use electric power to increase the ISP. This gives them enough thrust to get to orbit in a reasonable time, and counter drag, while the lighter-than-air nature (and eventually aerodynamic lift) keep gravity losses from being a killer.

I am not certain that this would work, but my intuition says that they might just be able to find a trajectory that balances the problems of using the atmosphere at high speed with the benefits. (I have a personal side project which if I ever finish it, I would also use to see if I can confirm this.) If it doesn't work out though, they should reasonably be able to at least build the dark sky station which would be cool in its own way.

Offline libra

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #110 on: 08/08/2019 04:23 pm »
Ah tank you very much, this helps a lot. Nine hours to orbit !

Edit: found this fascinating assessment of the concept. Excuses if it had been posted before.

https://www.science20.com/robert_walker/can_jp_aerospaces_future_giant_airships_slowly_accelerate_to_orbit_looking_at_the_numbers-225651

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #111 on: 08/17/2019 02:19 am »
https://twitter.com/johnmpowell1/status/1162542593294528512

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More space Legos!
On the right was a payload box made out of Legos. This was the Away 121 mission.
#jpaerospace #LEGO #space

https://twitter.com/johnmpowell1/status/1162543492582612994

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And submarine Legos too! The electronic components in the external housings on the sub are all mounted with Legos. It makes them really easy to swap out and reposition.
#jpaerospace #Legos #submarine

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #112 on: 08/22/2019 10:00 am »
One of the things I love about JP Aerospace is how they find low cost ways to do key research, such as on hypersonic flight:

https://twitter.com/johnmpowell1/status/1164350750874456064

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Our Data Dart is one of the tools we use to research high speed flight.  The Air Force wouldn't loan me an SR-71 (party poopers) so I had to make my own, just a wee bit smaller...  #jpaerospace

https://twitter.com/johnmpowell1/status/1164354786763739138

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Our new Data Dart Mark 10.  The fastest lump of plastic in town.
#jpaerospace

Offline QuantumG

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #113 on: 08/23/2019 12:27 am »
One of the things I love about JP Aerospace is how they find low cost ways to do key research, such as on hypersonic flight

The whole thing is an amazing shoestring science experiment.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #114 on: 09/20/2019 02:03 am »
https://twitter.com/johnmpowell1/status/1174799447458340864

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Plasma work at JPA. This is MHD firing 91 with the current chart overlaid.
#jpaerospace

Offline Lars-J

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #115 on: 09/22/2019 06:59 am »
I’m still patiently waiting for the “space” part of this aerospace operation.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #116 on: 09/22/2019 09:07 pm »
I’m still patiently waiting for the “space” part of this aerospace operation.

Keep waitin'.

Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #117 on: 10/16/2019 06:06 am »
https://twitter.com/johnmpowell1/status/1184286787411173376

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Next on Deck: Ascender Ellipse.
This is the first Ascender with an elliptical cross section & an all air beam internal structure. It's just a little one, 26 ft long. It's for low altitude structural tests. The Ellipse is 70% complete. We hope to fly before years end.
#jpaerospace

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #118 on: 10/20/2019 09:28 am »
https://twitter.com/johnmpowell1/status/1185725396098007042

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Concept drawings of the Block 4 Mach Glider. Mach Gliders are small Ascender airship used for development. The Block 4 will carry a single 'Quad' plasma engine.
#jpaerospace

https://twitter.com/johnmpowell1/status/1185723910957887489

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It's bad drawing time! This is the Block 4 Mach Glider  launching off the heavy lift Tandem. It's a development step toward to the TransAtmospheric Ascender (suborbital, but reaches space) which itself is a development step toward the orbital airship.
#jpaerospace #ascender

https://twitter.com/johnmpowell1/status/1185726695006859264

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A concept sketch of the Heavy Lift Tandem. It's shown without the balloons.
#jpaerospace

https://twitter.com/johnmpowell1/status/1185729316643987456

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Anther bad drawing! Here's the Heavy Lift Tandem with the roll deployed poly balloons.
#jpaerospace
« Last Edit: 10/20/2019 09:32 am by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: JP Aerospace updates
« Reply #119 on: 10/23/2019 05:46 pm »
https://twitter.com/johnmpowell1/status/1187052845142429697

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We do aerodynamic research with the Data Dart by launching it out of our hypersonic shock tube. This was flight 14.
#jpaerospace

https://twitter.com/johnmpowell1/status/1187059940612960257

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Some high speed flight tests go better than others. Here's a Data Dark coming apart during flight 15.
#jpaerospace

 

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