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#40
by
Satori
on 11 Nov, 2011 21:51
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This looks like an interesting video and capable of giving some light about the crews: China trains crew for manned space .
"With the crew already chosen and training underway, they will take control of the rendezvous and docking mission between the two spacecraft. Due to take place next year, the success of the project literally lies in the hands of the astronauts."
Hmm....an interesting find Rui. But the three guys we see are all veterans and they are each wearing the patch of their previous mission. Is that a Chinese 'tradition' that flown taikonauts always wear their old patches, or are those simply old archive clips made before the SZ-6 and 7 missions.
We usually see American astronauts with their mission patches of their suits. But the important thing in the article is the facto that it says that the crew is already chosen. Also, SZ-6 and SZ-7 are now too far in time. Is it possible to already have rendezvous and docking simulators at that time so «many» years before the docking systems were ready for the first flight?
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#41
by
tonyq
on 11 Nov, 2011 22:58
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We usually see American astronauts with their mission patches of their suits. But the important thing in the article is the facto that it says that the crew is already chosen. Also, SZ-6 and SZ-7 are now too far in time. Is it possible to already have rendezvous and docking simulators at that time so «many» years before the docking systems were ready for the first flight?
I suggested a few days ago (Message #31) that the SZ-9 and SZ-10 crews would already have been selected, as these are complex missions and the first one is only a few months away, so it is good to get that speculation confirmed.
You make a very good point about the clips being filmed in what seems to be a docking simulator, though I would still be amazed if the SZ-6 and SZ-7 crews fly again. I'd guess they have just used known taikonauts for this TV clip, as they don't want to reveal the real crews, especially the women, just yet.
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#42
by
Satori
on 11 Nov, 2011 23:11
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We usually see American astronauts with their mission patches of their suits. But the important thing in the article is the facto that it says that the crew is already chosen. Also, SZ-6 and SZ-7 are now too far in time. Is it possible to already have rendezvous and docking simulators at that time so «many» years before the docking systems were ready for the first flight?
I suggested a few days ago (Message #31) that the SZ-9 and SZ-10 crews would already have been selected, as these are complex missions and the first one is only a few months away, so it is good to get that speculation confirmed.
You make a very good point about the clips being filmed in what seems to be a docking simulator, though I would still be amazed if the SZ-6 and SZ-7 crews fly again. I'd guess they have just used known taikonauts for this TV clip, as they don't want to reveal the real crews, especially the women, just yet.
Yes, I think you are right or maybe we will see some of the taikonauts of the SZ-6 aor SZ-7 on the next missions.
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#43
by
Liss
on 12 Nov, 2011 11:48
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Svetlana Savitskaya was still married on her second trip into orbit and that didn't stop the rumours of a "space first" happening during her time on Salyut 7.
You may not know well this person, now a Duma member from the Communist Party and well-known critic of the regime. In her speeches and questions, Savitskaya follows political, not technical way of thinking.
And back in 1980s, there was a well-known anecdote on the topic. Aleksandr Serebrov, her teammate for first flight, was asked this question. 'Svetlana Savitskaya is not a woman, he said, she is a Party Comrade'.
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#44
by
SMS
on 13 Nov, 2011 13:10
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Here is all 14 taikonauts group photo...
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#45
by
tonyq
on 13 Nov, 2011 14:41
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I know that at least one well-known researcher and 'space sleuth' has shown that photo to Yang and Fei at international events where they have appeared, and tried to get them to identify each of the unflown guys.
Whilst they we happy to identify themselves and the 'known unflowns', such as Chen and Li, they pretended to photo was not clear enough to tell who was who among the other five.
It's clear that they are well tutored in what is public information, and what is still secret!
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#46
by
tonyq
on 17 Nov, 2011 14:28
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Interesting CCTV report from a couple of days ago which says that the crews for both SZ-9 and SZ-10 will be settled by 'Spring Festival, aka Chinese New Year (23rd January).
http://video.sina.com.cn/p/news/c/v/2011-11-14/220361560563.htmlI wonder if that means that will be 'settled' internally, or they mean that is when they will be announced to the outside world? If it is the former, then it is fairly pointless telling us this, so my sense is that it means the latter.
If they are planning to launch in March, then naming the crews 4 or 6 weeks before, seems to make sense, bearing in mind the general increase in openness and confidence, which we have seen since SZ-7.
This joint announcement would also fit with my earlier conjecture that the crewing of these two missions would effectively be a joint enterprise, with, possibly, the B/U crew for SZ-9 also being the prime crew for SZ-10, and the support crew for SZ-9 being the B/U crew for SZ-10.
PS - Edited to add that I am assuming that after what seems to have been very successful SZ-8, they will soon confirm that SZ-9 will fly with a crew, and cease this cautionary 'at least one 2012 flight will be manned' business.
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#47
by
tonyq
on 30 May, 2012 09:14
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With the SZ-9 launch apparently only 2-3 weeks away, it seems to be a good time to reactivate this thread and see if we can figure out how the SZ-9 crewing might unfold.
In December 2011, Chinese media announced that an advance training Group of nine taikonauts, seven men and two women, were preparing to fly the SZ-9 and SZ-10 missions. It mentioned that the men included some 'experienced taikonauts'.
It is unclear if 'experienced' just means men who have flown in space before, or includes those who have trained as back-ups on the earlier flights. The only two who fit this criteria are Wu Jie and Chen Quan.
Yang Liwei (China's Gagarin) is retired, Zhai Zhigang (as the Chinese Leonov) may be also, and Fei Junlong seems to undertake a lot of media and other work, so may be inactive too. Li Qinglong has been interviewed recently in the Chinese media and described as an ex-taikonaut, so seems to be retired. If this is on account of age, then possibly Wu Jie is retired too, as they are the oldest of the original 14. This may well reduce the available pool to just nine, from the original fourteen.
There have been some unofficial suggestions from China that the crew of SZ-6 (Fei and Nie) should not be ruled out as being in the training group, simply because they are now Generals; Nie seems to be more likely for the reasons mentioned above. Either of the remaining two guys from SZ-7 (Liu and Jing) could be in contention for back to back flights too.
So the advanced group of seven must be mostly comprised from the five guys from the 1998 group, who have never been assigned to a mission before, with the balance coming from some of those mentioned above as being available for a second flight.
There is no pattern to Chinese crewing, so although, in other programmes, Chen Quan ought to be considered a 'shoe in', as the back-up commander of the previous flight, we cannot make that assumption.
Turning to the women, this is a straight choice between Wang Yaping and Liu Yang, who were both selected in 2010, and so have had only two years training. Last year, when the 'group of nine' was announced, the women were in contention for SZ-10, so something has happened to bring the flight forward. Is the inclusion of a woman on SZ-9 politically driven, or are they genuinely best qualified for the demands of the mission?
For many months, media coverage in China seemed to focus exclusively on Wang, and seemed to suggest that she had already been selected for the mission. There was virtually nothing on the web about Liu.
There has been very little in the official Chinese media in the last three months about Wang or Liu. An article about Wang appeared briefly on the website of her home town media, about three weeks ago. This was an unofficial interview with her father, who suggested that she was buckling under the weight of media attentions and expectations; the article was very quickly removed.
There have been quite a number of postings about Liu on various forums in her home province, but these just say she is in the taikonaut team, and in contention for the flight. Interestingly, some posters, in responding to the positive messages, and who appear to know her personal background, say that she was the 'political officer' for her old aviation unit, and is related, through marriage, to a very senior Air Force officer, and suggesting that such connections might help her cause.
Clearly we have little concrete to go on. Discuss!!
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#48
by
Zero-G
on 30 May, 2012 13:09
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Turning to the women, this is a straight choice between Wang Yaping and Liu Yang, who were both selected in 2010, and so have had only two years training. Last year, when the 'group of nine' was announced, the women were in contention for SZ-10, so something has happened to bring the flight forward. Is the inclusion of a woman on SZ-9 politically driven, or are they genuinely best qualified for the demands of the mission?
Originally, there were plans to maybe have a second unmanned docking mission, depending on the results and success of the first one. These two unmanned missions would have been SZ-8 and SZ-9. So, SZ-10 would have been the first crewed docking mission.
It was only a few months ago, after evaluating the results of SZ-8, when it was decided to move the manned mission forward to SZ-9.
So, the reason to bring the flight of the first Chinese woman forward might simply be because the next crewed flight is brought forward, and one option may always have been to have a woman aboard the next flight anyway.
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#49
by
TALsite
on 10 Jun, 2012 21:02
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Clearly we have little concrete to go on. Discuss!!
Let's play the game:
WU Jie - CDR
LIU Yang - Operator 1
PAN Zhanchun - Operator 2
I bet for Wu as commander (was CDR backup on SZ6). Liu instead of Wang... maybe the Chinese are talking of Wang to isolate the other woman from the press... and Pan as third crewmember for no special reason
his name sounds good.
On the backup crew:
CHEN Quan - CDR
WANG Yaping - Operator 1
ZHAO Chuandong - Operator 2
Chen was backup CDR for SZ-7. Zhao for the same reason than Pan.
And the support crew:
LIU WangZHANG XiaoguangDENG QingmingIn unknown positions...
I think that the SZ-10 crew would have Chen as CDR (with probably Wu as backup) and the other 4 would be the SZ9 support crew plus the backup Operator 2.
Thoughts?
Do you wanna play?
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#50
by
Satori
on 10 Jun, 2012 21:14
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There is not sure that Wu Jie is still an active taikonaut and I would prefer to have a veteran as the Commander (someone gave me a hint that the Commander could be Nie Haisheng on his second flight).
I still bet on Wang Yaping for the woman's place because of her background and because of the military connections of Liu Yang's family.
The third seat would go to Chen Quan having been backup CDR for SZ-7.
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#51
by
TALsite
on 10 Jun, 2012 22:02
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... (someone gave me a hint that the Commander could be Nie Haisheng on his second flight).
Posted by TonyQ
There have been some unofficial suggestions from China that the crew of SZ-6 (Fei and Nie) should not be ruled out as being in the training group, simply because they are now Generals
Read on this web:
http://www.dragoninspace.com/astronaut/wu-jie.aspx"Wu Jie completed his training in late 1997 and was certified as a Soyuz Commander, with speciality in rendezvous and docking."Liu Buoming was specialized in EVA and was backup on SZ7
Wu, if not retired, seems to me the best for CDR
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#52
by
tonyq
on 10 Jun, 2012 22:20
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OK here we go.
This is an important, difficult and complex mission, which has to succeed to keep their long term plans on track. So it makes sense to use a veteran taikonaut in the Commander role. Yang, Fei and Zhai seem to no longer be eligible, which leaves Nie Haisheng, Liu Buoming and Jing Haipen. Back to back flights seem unlikely for the last two, so Nie Haisheng is my choice for Commander.
I have seen Li Qinglong described as a former astronaut and I suspect that his contemporary, Wu Jie, might be too. In any event, it is 7 years since he was back-up on SZ-6 and he didn't figure at all in SZ-7, so I suspect he is out of the picture. This means that Chen Quan as a back-up on SZ-7 should be in the running and I would see him as Operator 1.
The female seat is very difficult to call, as we have little to go except a few rumours on forums and biased reporting in their home towns. However, I think that Rui is right, that Wang Yaping is a safer bet for the programme. She has a perfect, humble, family background, whilst Liu seems to have some military connections which might be unhelpful. Wang also looks good, and will be an excellent PR asset, post flight.
Prime
Commander - Nie Haisheng
Operator 1 - Chen Quan
Operator 2 - Wang Yaping
Back-up
Commander - Liu Buoming
Operator 1 - Liu Wang
Operator 2 - Liu Yang
(nice symmetry in the names!!)
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#53
by
Zero-G
on 10 Jun, 2012 22:41
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Liu Buoming was specialized in EVA and was backup on SZ7
Liu Buoming was prime crew on SZ-7. He was backup on SZ-6.
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#54
by
TALsite
on 10 Jun, 2012 22:55
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Liu Buoming was prime crew on SZ-7. He was backup on SZ-6.
True. My mistake-
There have been quite a number of postings about Liu ...
... say that she was the 'political officer' for her old aviation unit, and is related, through marriage, to a very senior Air Force officer, and suggesting that such connections might help her cause.
Maybe Liu Yang will fly for the benefit of the Party
Back-up
Commander - Liu Buoming
Operator 1 - Liu Wang
Operator 2 - Liu Yang
(nice symmetry in the names!!)
Yeah like the Williams in the US and the Volkov's in the USSR/Russia
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#55
by
tonyq
on 10 Jun, 2012 23:44
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This reasonably credible website now reporting that Wang Yaping is assigned to the prime crew:-
http://www.dragoninspace.com/astronaut/wang-yaping.aspxNo idea on their source. Some French language information service also reporting the same, but they may have sourced their information from this same link
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#56
by
tonyq
on 11 Jun, 2012 18:28
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Prime
Commander - Nie Haisheng
Operator 1 - Chen Quan
Operator 2 - Wang Yaping
Back-up
Commander - Liu Buoming
Operator 1 - Liu Wang
Operator 2 - Liu Yang
(nice symmetry in the names!!)
So I got two out of three in each crew - In the words of Meatloaf "Two out of three ain't bad."
Ofcourse, the jury is still out on whether I have the crews the correct way round, but can anyone realistically see Major-General Nie Haisheng being in a back-up role?
Leading this first docking mission is very prestigous assignment, and I would bet that he has gone looking for this flight, as his astronaut swansong. Having his SZ-6 commander as the current leader of the taikonaut team won't have harmed his position.
So despite what some other sources are saying, I believe Nie, Zhang and Wang will fly the mission!
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#57
by
BUAA
on 11 Jun, 2012 21:40
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A few points:
1. The unknown crew in Nie's team is now identified as Zhang Xiao-guang, not Chen Quan
2. The commander of the other team is Jing Hai-peng, not Liu Bo-ming
3. Against all odds, all signs indicate that Jing Hai-peng/Liu Wang/Liu Yang team may be the prime crew, though this still needs further confirmation
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#58
by
tonyq
on 22 Jun, 2012 12:37
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Going back to the original premise of this thread, and now having the benefit of seeing how SZ-9 crewing has panned out, I'll put forward some thoughts about Chinese crewing, generally, since 2003.
It would seem that after each earlier flight, (SZ-5,6 and 7) the mission specific team was, dissolved, and a new team put together for the objectives of the next mission. Being a back-up didn’t automatically make a taikonaut a ‘shoe in’ for the next mission – they had to qualify, and be selected again, perhaps against different criteria and mission requirements.
This would explain how Fei Junlong appeared from nowhere to command SZ-6; how Wu Jie vanished after SZ-6; how the SZ-6 crew emerged as back-ups on SZ-7; how Jing has got back to back flights, ahead of both unflowns, and flowns, who have been waiting longer.
This would help explain why there was no apparent crewing pattern or sequence on the earlier flights.
However, SZ-9 and SZ-10 ought to be different. The nine person training group appears to have been created, and resourced, to cover both missions, so it seems 99% sure that the SZ-10 crew will be drawn from the six left behind.
Presumably after SZ-10, the group will be dissolved and a new group formed for SZ-11 and SZ-12, and beyond.
I'd guess that if it weren’t for the ‘female’ angle, it would be extremely likely that the back-up crew would just move up to fly SZ-10. However, we have no way of knowing exactly what the mission planners have in mind, at this stage.
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#59
by
Yoxonaut
on 12 Apr, 2013 23:54
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I have been working on an article for the upcoming Shenzhou 10 mission and I included a bit of speculation on the crew composition. As one of my sources for information or should that be inspiration I reads through this old thread.
On Phil Clark’s opening message he names Zhai Zhigang and Wu Je as the first back-ups to Shenzhou 6 and Liu Boming and Jing Haipeng as the second back-up crew. This is certainly the order shown on the Spacefacts website
http://www.spacefacts.de/english/flights.htm but with my pedantic or should that be obsessional nature I checked another source and found
http://dragoninspace.com/shenzhou/shenzhou6.aspx which shows the crews the other way around.
More digging followed. Praxis Manned Spaceflight Log 1961-2006 ©2007 by Tim Furniss and David J Shayler with Michael D Shayler, Wikipedia, Encyclopedia Astronautica and worldspaceflight.com all showed the Liu and Jing teaming as the first back-ups. However in support of Spacefacts a Russian website, astronaut.ru shows Zhai and Wu as the first back-ups.
A little more digging showed Xinhua listing the astronauts in the order of Fei, Nie, Liu, Jing, Zhai and Wu but without a definite statement of who was what (except for who actually flew the mission).
Also interesting is that I cannot find an official or semi-official mention that any of the astronauts for Shenzhou 6 were the commander of a particular team. The use of commander or leader only seems to come into play for the three person crews. Xinhua describes Zhai, Chen Quan, Jing and Nie as commanders or leaders of their crews for Shenzhou 7 and 9 and the China Manned Space Engineering Office only names Zhai as a commander for Shenzhou 7.
I cannot help but wonder if [for Shenzhou 6] none of the three crews had a designated commander. Does anyone out there have any thoughts or provide an official confirmation of how the crews for Shenzhou 6 should be listed.
his name sounds good.
