ATK/EADS: Liberty Launch Vehicle Update Thread

[spacejulien]

From the video I eye balled it at a 50% thicker panel. To be frank, that's very little increase for the sort of machines they showed. I'm not very impressed with that certification. Not that it's not critical, but seems like much ado about nothing to me.
It might mean a lot worse fmp, though.

1) There are a few people on here who can run the numbers. I suspect it won't be long before we start seeing some (gu)estimates.

2) But, like Robotbeat said: this rocket is moving beyond Powerpoint. I don't like this Ares-1-zombie, but hey, new hardware is always interesting to watch.

1) From the video it's clear that they mill the stringers. So, I couldn't really say that they use 50% thicker walls, or are they doubling the stringers height. Lot's of unknowns there.
2) My point is that this work shouldn't have cost much more than €10k. Let's not blow it out of proportion. Running a couple of thicker stock and increasing a couple of dimensions on a parametric CAD to test the capability (may be add a new tip to the welding machine), is not a starting to bend metal. It's just checking that the CNC equipment is withing specification. They've probably already done this for the machine acceptance testing.

1) Exactly, at 32 seconds they show some increased wallthickness, but that's not at all informative: Is the base "Ariane 5" thickness from LOx or LH2-tank? Is it membrane or weld seam thickness? The important stiffening against bucking of the cylinder comes from the stringers (there are no stringers on Ariane 5), but no mention of their dimensions.
2) Yes, I totally agree. On 5.4 m diameter, the tank has a circumferential length of nearly 17 meters, made from three panels, so nearly 6m per panel. At 1:07 you see the panel in the feeding area of the panel bending machine. The demo-panel is extremely small, maybe takes up a fourth of that feeding area. This demo-panel is mere 1.5 meters wide, so probably even made from cut-off material. The welding demonstrator is also extremely small...

All this is pure PR...

[paycom]

ATK (NYSE: ATK) and Astrium North America have signed a teaming agreement with NanoRacks, LLC, for NanoRacks to market opportunities for both astronaut explorers and the experiments they plan to carry into space on board the Liberty Transportation Servic
Source: PR Newswire (http://s.tt/1gc1f)]

Nanoracks will offer Liberty flights to science customers.
 Great news, however i'm not sure is the realy find enough  customers. Bigelow seemed to experience some difficulties to find science customers for their space station...

[Robotbeat]

ATK (NYSE: ATK) and Astrium North America have signed a teaming agreement with NanoRacks, LLC, for NanoRacks to market opportunities for both astronaut explorers and the experiments they plan to carry into space on board the Liberty Transportation Servic
Source: PR Newswire (http://s.tt/1gc1f)]

Nanoracks will offer Liberty flights to science customers.
 Great news, however i'm not sure is the realy find enough  customers. Bigelow seemed to experience some difficulties to find science customers for their space station...

... for the same reason as ATK... heavy on the PR, light on the actually having a space station.

[renclod]

for the record

[baldusi]

ATK (NYSE: ATK) and Astrium North America have signed a teaming agreement with NanoRacks, LLC, for NanoRacks to market opportunities for both astronaut explorers and the experiments they plan to carry into space on board the Liberty Transportation Servic
Source: PR Newswire (http://s.tt/1gc1f)]

Nanoracks will offer Liberty flights to science customers.
 Great news, however i'm not sure is the realy find enough  customers. Bigelow seemed to experience some difficulties to find science customers for their space station...

It's actually more similar to Bigelow signing a contract with Space Adventures to allow them to resell places in his space hotels when and if available. Who wouldn't sing such a contract? Really? I also expect them to sign a similar contract with Spaceflight Services for secondaries. That means nothing. It's like saying that you have a realtor that will offer the mile sky building if you ever build it.

[edkyle99]

Well, that nicely confirms the suspicion that the Ariane 5 core stage needed some serious reinforcement in order to fly as the Liberty upper stage.

In addition to the CNC comments above, wont astrium be able to shave weight in other areas due to not needing reinforcement for the A5 srbs?

On Ariane 5, the EPC is topped by a strong, probably heavy forward skirt named JAVE ("Jupe AVant Equipée") that transmits thrust from the two solid boosters to the core vehicle.   This structure will not be needed on Liberty.

 - Ed Kyle

[spacejulien]

Well, that nicely confirms the suspicion that the Ariane 5 core stage needed some serious reinforcement in order to fly as the Liberty upper stage.

In addition to the CNC comments above, wont astrium be able to shave weight in other areas due to not needing reinforcement for the A5 srbs?

On Ariane 5, the EPC is topped by a strong, probably heavy forward skirt named JAVE ("Jupe AVant Equipée") that transmits thrust from the two solid boosters to the core vehicle.   This structure will not be needed on Liberty.

 - Ed Kyle

Yeah,but some type of interstage structure will be needed.
Also, the Stage 1 / Stage 2 Interstage is something completely new...

[Tea Party Space Czar]

You absolutely have to be impressed with what ATK is doing.  No CCDev funds, just TIMS and unfunded SAAs.

As many know, myself and TPIS are not exactly "flag bearers" for ATK.  However, intellectual honesty demands we recognize that they are doing some amazing stuff.

Moreover, and most importantly, they are competing in the free market. 

Free Markets mean a lot.  I think ATK will surprise more people, including NewSpacers, more than we care to admit...

...and I know what I am talking about.

Respectfully,
Andrew Gasser
TEA Party in Space

[joek]

I think ATK will surprise more people, including NewSpacers, more than we care to admit

I hope we are pleasantly surprised.  They certainly appear to have the chops for it technically, although I don't know if ATK has ever actually launched anything or ever run launch services(?).  Based on their recent spate of press releases, they also appear to be consummate zip-code engineers, freely play the jobs card, NASA-shuttle legacy, and with a level of hyperbole which might make SpaceX blush.  Not that any other CTS contender wouldn't or won't do the same, but from the current vantage, they look heavily skewed towards PR, smoke and mirrors.  YMMV.

[GClark]

As someone who has criticised ATK in the past (not that my criticism means anything), I must admit that this is a change from their previous attempts - ALV X1, anyone?

They seem to have acquired some stick-to-itiveness recently - Liberty, Athena III, IIc.  We'll see how they do if (IF) one of their vehicles has a bad day.

[woods170]

1) From the video it's clear that they mill the stringers. So, I couldn't really say that they use 50% thicker walls, or are they doubling the stringers height. Lot's of unknowns there.
2) My point is that this work shouldn't have cost much more than €10k. Let's not blow it out of proportion. Running a couple of thicker stock and increasing a couple of dimensions on a parametric CAD to test the capability (may be add a new tip to the welding machine), is not a starting to bend metal. It's just checking that the CNC equipment is withing specification. They've probably already done this for the machine acceptance testing.

1) Correct: lot's of unknowns here. One known thing about the Ariane 5 EPC is that it consists of sheet-metal tanks with no stringers. The aluminium walls of the Ariane 5 EPC (both LOX and LH2 tanks) are only 4 millimeters thick. They would collapse under their own weight, so the EPC is kept pressurized at all times. Much like the balloon tanks on the early Atlas launchers.

2) Correct as well. But it does show that Astrium is serious in this endeavour, not withstanding some people's opinion that this is just another PR stunt.

IMO Liberty stands a much higher chance of actually being launched than say... SLS.
If it will ever be launched with a manned spacecraft on top...? Now, that is where I have my doubts.

[woods170]

Well, that nicely confirms the suspicion that the Ariane 5 core stage needed some serious reinforcement in order to fly as the Liberty upper stage.

In addition to the CNC comments above, wont astrium be able to shave weight in other areas due to not needing reinforcement for the A5 srbs?

On Ariane 5, the EPC is topped by a strong, probably heavy forward skirt named JAVE ("Jupe AVant Equipée") that transmits thrust from the two solid boosters to the core vehicle.   This structure will not be needed on Liberty.

 - Ed Kyle

Yeah,but some type of interstage structure will be needed.
Also, the Stage 1 / Stage 2 Interstage is something completely new...

Not entirely. There is legacy work from Constellation they can start from. Besides, interstages are not exactly all that hard to develop, design and engineer. Dutchspace from the Netherlands has been doing that for various Ariane models since 1975 (later they switched to making thrust structures for Ariane 5). I've been involved with some of the aftermath of the most recent Dutchspace effort in interstages: the Vega 1/2 interstage. One of the engineers told me that interstages do not require state-of-the-art engineering, nor do they require huge development budgets. They are basically rather cheap structures. Forces acting upon them are well understood and can be easily modelled with todays computer assisted design tools. To quote the quy in Dutch: "Niet echt bijzonder" (translation: "Nothing special")

[spacejulien]

I wasn't concerned about complexity, but it's mass...

[Danderman]

ATK and Astrium Team With NanoRacks on Liberty


http://www.marketwatch.com/story/atk-signs-teaming-agreement-for-liberty-transportation-service-2012-06-28

ARLINGTON, Va., June 28, 2012 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ -- ATK  and Astrium North America have signed a teaming agreement with NanoRacks, LLC, for NanoRacks to market opportunities for both astronaut explorers and the experiments they plan to carry into space on board the Liberty Transportation Service.

"NanoRacks is a world leader in understanding the emerging commercial market for low Earth orbit utilization," said Kent Rominger, ATK's Liberty Program Manager. "Jeff Manber and his NanoRacks team will bring the tremendous capability of the Liberty Transportation Service to this community worldwide. The prospects are very exciting."

[Prober]

1) From the video it's clear that they mill the stringers. So, I couldn't really say that they use 50% thicker walls, or are they doubling the stringers height. Lot's of unknowns there.
2) My point is that this work shouldn't have cost much more than €10k. Let's not blow it out of proportion. Running a couple of thicker stock and increasing a couple of dimensions on a parametric CAD to test the capability (may be add a new tip to the welding machine), is not a starting to bend metal. It's just checking that the CNC equipment is withing specification. They've probably already done this for the machine acceptance testing.

1) Correct: lot's of unknowns here. One known thing about the Ariane 5 EPC is that it consists of sheet-metal tanks with no stringers. The aluminium walls of the Ariane 5 EPC (both LOX and LH2 tanks) are only 4 millimeters thick. They would collapse under their own weight, so the EPC is kept pressurized at all times. Much like the balloon tanks on the early Atlas launchers.

2) Correct as well. But it does show that Astrium is serious in this endeavour, not withstanding some people's opinion that this is just another PR stunt.

IMO Liberty stands a much higher chance of actually being launched than say... SLS.
If it will ever be launched with a manned spacecraft on top...? Now, that is where I have my doubts.

very good info....what is Astrium's connection with Airbus?  Must confess I don't understand the cross ownerships.

I ask this because of a news item that I saw of the Airbus factory being announced for Alabama.   Could an Airbus factory assemble 2nd stages?

[hektor]

Astrium and Airbus are both fully owned by the aerospace conglomerate EADS. Two divisions of the same group.

[MP99]

Purely IMHO, ATK's determination to proceed with Liberty no matter what suggests to me an ambivilence about either:

a) the likelihood of them winning the SLS advanced booster competition or

b) the likelihood of SLS representing a major customer for segmented solids (low flight rate).

Simply put, ATK need to leverage the RSRM technology onto a new product that they need to sell  - Hence Liberty and the Full-Court Press to sell it to the American public.  It is quite possigble that, should Liberty fails, ATK would need to significantly downsize to save costs.

Alternatively, if Liberty shares costs with SLS SRBs, they become cheaper for SLS - especially at very low SLS flight rates.

cheers, Martin

[MP99]

Not at all. The contradiction, if any,  comes from Charles Bolden, himself.  I sat in a briefing with him as he explained that there is very little technological advancement left available from chemical propulsion from the ground to LEO (possibly a few extra 1 or 2 % improvement) yet at the same time he was willing to spend billions with a B (I believe he said 8b) to “see” if liquid boosters should replace solids.

That seems more about cost and usability than performance.

It may be a safety issue more than a thrust or cost issue but there is a definite leaning toward liquid.

Big advancement is available for the SLS solids, because they use late 1970s steel-casing PBAN technology.  Solid rocket state of the art is much advanced from those days, with composite cases, higher pressures, and higher specific impulse.  Advanced composite boosters would add tens of tonnes LEO payload to SLS.  They would also give Liberty a big jump in performance.

Thrust advantage I was expecting - surprised to see an Isp advantage? Does that need a big nozzle to take advantage of the extra pressure?

cheers, Martin

[woods170]

I wasn't concerned about complexity, but it's mass...

Don't worry about that either. Interstages are made as light-weight, yet as sturdy, as possible.

[M_Puckett]

In order to make a business case for their advanced SLS booster submission, they need the extra flight rate from Liberty to help compete with the liquid offerings.

If NASA adopts the advanced SRB's for SLS, I would not be suprised if Liberty gets a close variant upgrade of the same.  I suspect both are joined at the hip, one profiting off of the existance of the other.