ATK/EADS: Liberty Launch Vehicle Update Thread

[alexw]

EPS is entering new production.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Do you know why and / or do you have a link?

Would it have anything to do with launching  for the Galileo system?

I thought Galileo was going up on Soyuz from Kourou?

  Both Soyuz and Ariane V ES Galileo. Links abound, but try http://www.esa.int/esaNA/SEM825TXXXG_index_0.html
    To be fair, I suppose it might not necessarily be new production, rather only requalification & modification of previously stored stages.
     -Alex

[docmordrid]

http://www.aviationweek.com/awmobile/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_05_10_2012_p0-456480.xml

[gladiator1332]

If Liberty is "too much rocket" when compared to EELVs, why not go with 4 segments on the first stage? Seems to me it would be easier to recover and depending on how much the Liberty capsule weighs, get the commercial crew job done as well.

[Downix]

If Liberty is "too much rocket" when compared to EELVs, why not go with 4 segments on the first stage? Seems to me it would be easier to recover and depending on how much the Liberty capsule weighs, get the commercial crew job done as well.

Not enough to get to the staging point due to the weight of the upper stage.

[edkyle99]

If Liberty is "too much rocket" when compared to EELVs, why not go with 4 segments on the first stage? Seems to me it would be easier to recover and depending on how much the Liberty capsule weighs, get the commercial crew job done as well.

Not enough to get to the staging point due to the weight of the upper stage.

I figure that a Liberty with a three-segment booster could still get 16-17 tonnes to LEO/ISS, depending on the upper stage propellant load.  A four-segment boosted version should lift 18-19 tonnes or so.  There's plenty of liftoff thrust, even with only three segments.

 - Ed Kyle

[Kaputnik]

I don't suppose ATK have, in their arsenal, a smaller SRM that you could mount on the side of the upper stage? Now that would save a lot of redesign work...

[Lobo]

The price they are quoting is very promising.

What is the quote?

Last price I'd heard was $160 million per, but that is without crew capsule.  Using their current presentation and some math-fu, I get a crewed launch at around $280 million.

Any idea what the estimated price of a full crewed Dragon launch would be?  Which would factor in the upgrades to Dragon, F9, and LC-40 required for crewed launch?

Just wondering the cost comparisons.

[Prober]

If Liberty is "too much rocket" when compared to EELVs, why not go with 4 segments on the first stage? Seems to me it would be easier to recover and depending on how much the Liberty capsule weighs, get the commercial crew job done as well.

Not enough to get to the staging point due to the weight of the upper stage.

I figure that a Liberty with a three-segment booster could still get 16-17 tonnes to LEO/ISS, depending on the upper stage propellant load.  A four-segment boosted version should lift 18-19 tonnes or so.  There's plenty of liftoff thrust, even with only three segments.

 - Ed Kyle

Hey Ed, how about a Liberty with a 2nd stage engine from the Japan launcher?

[yg1968]

The price they are quoting is very promising.

What is the quote?

Last price I'd heard was $160 million per, but that is without crew capsule.  Using their current presentation and some math-fu, I get a crewed launch at around $280 million.

What I have heard is less then $60 million / seat (price for Soyuz seat). Since Liberty can take 7 people that is a total price of less then $420 million which I think is realistic.

$160 + $280 = $440, so we're both in the same ballpark.  And yes, I'd count is as quite realistic.

That's twice as much as SpaceX. Gerst said that the budget for ferrying crew to the ISS would be about $480 million (8 x $60M) per year for 2 flights per year. Hopefully, price will be a discriminator in choosing commercial crew participants.   

[yg1968]

At least when Gwynne talked at Space Access, I thought she made it clear that they were saying they could beat the old $20M/seat price if they sold four full flights per year. Not the $60M/seat current price ATK is shooting for. Both numbers should be taken with a grain of salt of course.

Yeah, but when talking to Congress Elon said only "beat the Russian price" with 4x7. When you consider that the question posed to everyone in attendance was 2x4, only ULA answered the question.

Maybe during CCiCap we'll actually find out what it is NASA wants to buy, but I doubt it

What did ULA answer?

[muomega0]

The price they are quoting is very promising.

What is the quote?

Last price I'd heard was $160 million per, but that is without crew capsule.  Using their current presentation and some math-fu, I get a crewed launch at around $280 million.

What I have heard is less then $60 million / seat (price for Soyuz seat). Since Liberty can take 7 people that is a total price of less then $420 million which I think is realistic.

$160 + $280 = $440, so we're both in the same ballpark.  And yes, I'd count is as quite realistic.

That's twice as much as SpaceX. Gerst said that the budget for ferrying crew to the ISS would be about $480 million (8 x $60M) per year for 2 flights per year. Hopefully, price will be a discriminator in choosing commercial crew participants.   

Historically,
ATK 12 Years, $4.1Billion = 340M/yr

340M/ 2x4 = 42M/seat, but the country retains the yearly fixed costs of the extra product line as opposed to EELV, and the LAS and SRB is not common with other LVs in the future.  Seems like a tough sell.

[Downix]

The price they are quoting is very promising.

What is the quote?

Last price I'd heard was $160 million per, but that is without crew capsule.  Using their current presentation and some math-fu, I get a crewed launch at around $280 million.

What I have heard is less then $60 million / seat (price for Soyuz seat). Since Liberty can take 7 people that is a total price of less then $420 million which I think is realistic.

$160 + $280 = $440, so we're both in the same ballpark.  And yes, I'd count is as quite realistic.

That's twice as much as SpaceX. Gerst said that the budget for ferrying crew to the ISS would be about $480 million (8 x $60M) per year for 2 flights per year. Hopefully, price will be a discriminator in choosing commercial crew participants.   

Historically,
ATK 12 Years, $4.1Billion = 340M/yr

340M/ 2x4 = 42M/seat, but the country retains the yearly fixed costs of the extra product line as opposed to EELV, and the LAS and SRB is not common with other LVs in the future.  Seems like a tough sell.

You forgot to add the Titan IV SRB support costs which were then folded into the Shuttle SRB once that program was finished.  That adds a total of $2.7 billion to the total, bringing the total cost to $6.8 billion.  Over 12 years, you get $567 million/year.

[edkyle99]

That's twice as much as SpaceX. Gerst said that the budget for ferrying crew to the ISS would be about $480 million (8 x $60M) per year for 2 flights per year. Hopefully, price will be a discriminator in choosing commercial crew participants.   

It should cost twice as much.  It orbits twice as much payload!

The Liberty team suggested that the excess capacity could be used to simultaneously haul cargo to ISS, which might argue in favor of their approach.

 - Ed Kyle

[yg1968]

That's twice as much as SpaceX. Gerst said that the budget for ferrying crew to the ISS would be about $480 million (8 x $60M) per year for 2 flights per year. Hopefully, price will be a discriminator in choosing commercial crew participants.   

It should cost twice as much.  It orbits twice as much payload!

The Liberty team suggested that the excess capacity could be used to simultaneously haul cargo to ISS, which might argue in favor of their approach.

 - Ed Kyle

Orion lite is probably heavier than crewed Dragon. Furthermore carrying cargo on a cargo Dragon is probably cheaper than carrying cargo on a crewed spacecraft. 

[Jason1701]

That's twice as much as SpaceX. Gerst said that the budget for ferrying crew to the ISS would be about $480 million (8 x $60M) per year for 2 flights per year. Hopefully, price will be a discriminator in choosing commercial crew participants.   

The Liberty team suggested that the excess capacity could be used to simultaneously haul cargo to ISS, which might argue in favor of their approach.

Where would the cargo be carried? There would be little excess room in the cabin, and no provisions for unpressurized cargo, unless the SM were made much larger and more capable than "minimization" makes it sound.

[jongoff]

That's twice as much as SpaceX. Gerst said that the budget for ferrying crew to the ISS would be about $480 million (8 x $60M) per year for 2 flights per year. Hopefully, price will be a discriminator in choosing commercial crew participants.   

The Liberty team suggested that the excess capacity could be used to simultaneously haul cargo to ISS, which might argue in favor of their approach.

Where would the cargo be carried? There would be little excess room in the cabin, and no provisions for unpressurized cargo, unless the SM were made much larger and more capable than "minimization" makes it sound.

ATK apparently believes in the Lego approach to proposing rocket/spacecraft systems, so it can't be that hard to slap a MPLM in there somewhere with some duct tape and bailing wire.

~Jon

[edkyle99]

Where would the cargo be carried? There would be little excess room in the cabin, and no provisions for unpressurized cargo, unless the SM were made much larger and more capable than "minimization" makes it sound.

There was mention of possibly carrying some cargo in the SM.  Of course, propellant, oxygen, and water, etc, could be carried in relatively small tanks. 

 - Ed Kyle

[PahTo]

ATK apparently believes in the Lego approach to proposing rocket/spacecraft systems, so it can't be that hard to slap a MPLM in there somewhere with some duct tape and bailing wire.

~Jon

Now look, I am an LRB guy all the way, and wonder about all of this, but c'mon!  Heck, I tune in to see the roll out of Falcon 9 and end up going OT for a gratuitous shot. 

[jongoff]

ATK apparently believes in the Lego approach to proposing rocket/spacecraft systems, so it can't be that hard to slap a MPLM in there somewhere with some duct tape and bailing wire.

Now look, I am an LRB guy all the way, and wonder about all of this, but c'mon!  Heck, I tune in to see the roll out of Falcon 9 and end up going OT for a gratuitous shot. 

I was being a bit of a jerk. It is probably possible to make some sort of pressurized cargo carrier for Liberty (but it won't be cheap), or an unpressurized "trunk" of sorts like Dragon's trunk.

~Jon

[gladiator1332]

I don't suppose ATK have, in their arsenal, a smaller SRM that you could mount on the side of the upper stage? Now that would save a lot of redesign work...

"Stumpy" meets A5?