Author Topic: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)  (Read 787785 times)

Online Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #940 on: 01/09/2012 03:45 pm »

Implied, but not explicit in your response is that the 5KW array will be operating on a 50% duty cycle (day/night).

Presuming there are charging losses on the batteries, Dragon will see a bit less than 2.5KW of continuous power. Anyone have any data what those losses are likely to be (ie estimate the actual continuous power available to Dragon systems from that array).


Assuming perfect panel illumination, 50%. More likely much less than 50% in practice. Don't forget depending on the season and inclination of the orbit, you can get much less than 50% daylight per orbit.
Why does season matter since you are aiming at the Sun (not at an angle)? The further you are from Earth, the more daylight you will get, so if you have good aim, you should get GREATER than 50% sunlight, not less.
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Online Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #941 on: 01/09/2012 03:46 pm »
In addition to being a vertically integrated rocket company, they're becoming a vertically integrated satellite manufacturer ... Probably more profit margin there, anyway, compared to being a launch company.

What do you think is keeping OSC in the black? It's certainly not Pegasus and Taurus...
Precisely.

(But also, OSC does missile defense stuff, don't forget. I don't know how much that compares to their revenue from satellite manufacture.)
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #942 on: 01/09/2012 04:06 pm »

Implied, but not explicit in your response is that the 5KW array will be operating on a 50% duty cycle (day/night).

Presuming there are charging losses on the batteries, Dragon will see a bit less than 2.5KW of continuous power. Anyone have any data what those losses are likely to be (ie estimate the actual continuous power available to Dragon systems from that array).


Assuming perfect panel illumination, 50%. More likely much less than 50% in practice. Don't forget depending on the season and inclination of the orbit, you can get much less than 50% daylight per orbit.
Why does season matter since you are aiming at the Sun (not at an angle)? The further you are from Earth, the more daylight you will get, so if you have good aim, you should get GREATER than 50% sunlight, not less.

Guys? While you debate, look up a couple of posts, docmordrid already posted the official SpaceX information:

Dragon PDF says 1,500-2,000 W average, 4,000 W peak
« Last Edit: 01/09/2012 04:06 pm by Lars_J »

Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #943 on: 01/09/2012 04:08 pm »

Implied, but not explicit in your response is that the 5KW array will be operating on a 50% duty cycle (day/night).

Presuming there are charging losses on the batteries, Dragon will see a bit less than 2.5KW of continuous power. Anyone have any data what those losses are likely to be (ie estimate the actual continuous power available to Dragon systems from that array).


Assuming perfect panel illumination, 50%. More likely much less than 50% in practice. Don't forget depending on the season and inclination of the orbit, you can get much less than 50% daylight per orbit.

It's the other way around, >50% like Robotbeat said, and it's beta angle, not season.   For a 400 km high circular orbit, the minimum for Sun illumination is 61%.    Beta angle is measured between the orbit normal and the vector from Earth to the Sun.  Some high inclination orbits with beta near zero, I believe, are illuminated by the Sun for 100% of the orbit.

Panel pointing errors cause losses as the cosine of the angle, so it is practically perfect given a one or two degree capsule ACS pointing deadband and better resoluion on the panel rotation.

And I think apace was talking about battery system losses.

Was docmordrid's post for the Dragon capsule systems or for the user allocation on Dragonlab?
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #944 on: 01/09/2012 04:20 pm »
If @docmordrid's Dragon PDF is from the SpaceX web site, then it quite likely out of date. That PDF was created around Sep 2009.

Offline ugordan

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #945 on: 01/09/2012 05:49 pm »
On the topic of solar panels, what are your thoughts on plume impingement concerns raised by NASA (?). Eyeballing the geometry, the thrusters look like they wouldn't pose issues, but the diffuse component of the plume (rapidly expanding outward, not the "main" jet) of downward pointing Dracos looks like it could impact the panels.

Is it correct to assume the impingement concern is mainly due to exhaust droplets and if so are they mostly concentrated in a narrow jet?
« Last Edit: 01/09/2012 05:51 pm by ugordan »

Online Jorge

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #946 on: 01/09/2012 06:19 pm »
On the topic of solar panels, what are your thoughts on plume impingement concerns raised by NASA (?). Eyeballing the geometry, the thrusters look like they wouldn't pose issues, but the diffuse component of the plume (rapidly expanding outward, not the "main" jet) of downward pointing Dracos looks like it could impact the panels.

Is it correct to assume the impingement concern is mainly due to exhaust droplets and if so are they mostly concentrated in a narrow jet?

No and no.
JRF

Offline mmeijeri

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #947 on: 01/09/2012 06:32 pm »
Are cold gas thrusters much better when it comes to plume impingement?
Pro-tip: you don't have to be a jerk if someone doesn't agree with your theories

Offline ugordan

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #948 on: 01/09/2012 06:37 pm »
If exhaust velocity is what matters, cold gas thrusters can't be as bad. Quick search shows N2 to be up to 80s Isp and He up to 180s so roughly 1/4 to 1/2 the exhaust velocity of typical bipropellant thrusters.
« Last Edit: 01/09/2012 06:41 pm by ugordan »

Online Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #949 on: 01/09/2012 06:39 pm »
Are cold gas thrusters much better when it comes to plume impingement?
Yeah, they won't scorch anything and are generally quite inert (usually nitrogen gas as opposed to hydrazine, etc). That deals with just about all the issues except the torques and pressure.
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Offline docmordrid

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #950 on: 01/09/2012 08:03 pm »
Updated Erin Beck PDF from August 2010 on NASA's site....

Quote
Electrical Power

– Unregulated 28 VDC and 120 VDC
– ~2000 W avg. payload power
– ~4000 W peak payload power
– ~16 kWh storage on-board
« Last Edit: 01/09/2012 08:08 pm by docmordrid »
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Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #951 on: 01/09/2012 08:26 pm »
Updated Erin Beck PDF from August 2010 on NASA's site....

Quote
Electrical Power

– Unregulated 28 VDC and 120 VDC
– ~2000 W avg. payload power
– ~4000 W peak payload power
– ~16 kWh storage on-board

Those numbers are for Dragonlab payload accomodations.  They do not include the Dragon spacecraft avionics, comm, etc.

16 kWh is a lot compared to 2 kW average for a half hour eclipse.

The presentation contains many out of date elements including a tractor LAS on page 4.  The solar panels have the scissors deployment instead of what is seen in the video.  (Not to mention the Falcon 1e and the "Falcon 9 Heavy" name...) 

Page 17 "CRS Late Load, Early Access" says "Access through side hatch up to L-9 hours".  This implies that they were  at either planning some access to the Dragon after it is erected on the launch pad like the two man bucket lift used to send in the guys with the tin snips on F9 #1, or they plan to roll out and launch in <9 hrs for CRS.
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline ugordan

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #952 on: 01/09/2012 08:32 pm »
Page 17 "CRS Late Load, Early Access" says "Access through side hatch up to L-9 hours".  This implies that they were  at either planning some access to the Dragon after it is erected on the launch pad like the two man bucket lift used to send in the guys with the tin snips on F9 #1, or they plan to roll out and launch in <9 hrs for CRS.

This, I think. Note this tweet:

Quote
Successful WDR Wed. Rehearsed everything from Falcon 9 roll 2 pad, tanking, tests, countdown to T-3 sec, done in <6 hrs

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #953 on: 01/10/2012 09:15 pm »
ISS performs hardware and software upgrades to support inaugural Dragon visit - by Pete Harding:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2012/01/iss-hardware-software-upgrades-support-inaugural-dragon-visit/
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Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #954 on: 01/10/2012 09:38 pm »
Thanks for the enlightening article!

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #955 on: 01/11/2012 02:16 pm »
At the risk of creating a firestorm: Is the C2/3 schedule being held back by the ISS schedule or is the ISS schedule being held back by the C2/3 schedule? I'm interested in the factual answer, not apologia for either side.
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Offline mr. mark

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #956 on: 01/11/2012 02:53 pm »
At this point 3 weeks out approx. does it matter? Things are converging quickly and we know that SpaceX updates are approx. 5 weeks behind actual reality. For all we know the Dragon has already been integrated and is being prepped for test fire in about 2 weeks.

Offline Comga

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #957 on: 01/11/2012 02:56 pm »
At the risk of creating a firestorm: Is the C2/3 schedule being held back by the ISS schedule or is the ISS schedule being held back by the C2/3 schedule? I'm interested in the factual answer, not apologia for either side.

Does this question have any meaning?

COTS-2/3 has a scheduled launch date.  From Pete's excellent article, there are many details being worked on the ISS, and are planned to be in process until a few days before then.  From the SpaceX updates, it looks like there are many details being worked on Dragon, and with four weeks to go they probably have a packed schedule.   One expects that they have good communications, and are each convincing the other that they will be ready on February 7.  With SpaceX having practices a roll-out and fueling in under six hours, we may not see the results much ahead.

It would be surprising if anyone of our knowlegable colleagues knew of a delay and were able to post it ahead of an official statement.  Our friend anik hasn't posted any related changes to the ISS schedule for over a month.
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline stockman

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #958 on: 01/11/2012 02:57 pm »
I agree with Mr. Mark - since we are getting this close it really doesn't matter - besides is it not fair to say that the schedule delays are probably both sides fault.. its well known that ISS had to have two trained personnel on board and do several h/w and s/w upgrades before any dragon flight... its also from history quite likely that spacex had its own delays... lets call it even and look to a good and successful flight...
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Offline Garrett

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Re: SpaceX COTS Demo 2/3 Updates (THREAD 2)
« Reply #959 on: 01/11/2012 03:00 pm »
At the risk of creating a firestorm: Is the C2/3 schedule being held back by the ISS schedule or is the ISS schedule being held back by the C2/3 schedule? I'm interested in the factual answer, not apologia for either side.
And behold, a firestorm did come upon him ... :P

First, ask yourself if there is such a thing as a "factual answer". Facts exist, answers are another story ;)

From my armchair view and with the facts I know of (or vaguely remember), I would come to the conclusion that nobody held anybody back, but simply that space technology is sh!t hard, that slips in "schedules" are part of the game and that there's rarely any time to complain about who held who back.

SpaceX were sometimes behind (though they'd never admit it like that), NASA were sometimes behind, and though the Russian rocket failures had a role to play in that, it's ultimately NASA's responsibility to get the appropriate astronauts to the ISS on time.

Forget thinking about who held who back. Just get some popcorn/pizza/beer/whatever readyfor Feb 7th/8th and enjoy the show!
« Last Edit: 01/11/2012 03:00 pm by Garrett »
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