Author Topic: Bigelow Aerospace Update Thread (2) (Read 353532 times)

Oberon_Command · « **Reply #40 on:** 08/31/2011 04:29 pm »

If Boeing has the rights to the design and the tooling to build more nodes, couldn't NASA and Bigelow just offer to buy them from Boeing?

ChefPat · « **Reply #41 on:** 08/31/2011 04:43 pm »

Quote from: Oberon_Command on 08/31/2011 04:29 pm

If Boeing has the rights to the design and the tooling to build more nodes, couldn't NASA and Bigelow just offer to buy them from Boeing?

Wouldn't you need a Shuttle to get them up to LEO?

Namechange User · « **Reply #42 on:** 08/31/2011 04:48 pm »

Quote from: Oberon_Command on 08/31/2011 04:29 pm

If Boeing has the rights to the design and the tooling to build more nodes, couldn't NASA and Bigelow just offer to buy them from Boeing?

No, because they are not Boeing property. NASA paid for them. It's like LM can't sell me or anyone else an F-35.

But NASA can't just have anyone else build them without going through some hurdles.

I realize it's a bit complicated and hopefully now it is as clear as mud.

Orbital Debris · « **Reply #43 on:** 08/31/2011 08:09 pm »

Quote from: ChefPat on 08/25/2011 09:03 pm

Quote from: happyflower on 08/25/2011 08:20 pm
Anybody know why the Bigelow space stations (Sapce Complex Alpha, CSS Skywalker, whatever) dont have a robot arm? From the ISS (solar array repairs) it appears having a robot arm is almost a must if you are going to be in space for the long term. Also with a robot arm, other space ships like the Dragon can also bring crews to Bigelow habitats.
Who says they're not going to have one?

It is not in the baseline design. Also, to answer another question, the basic reason is due to cost. Packaging and hard points are issues to overcome as well. Solar arrays, radiators, and rendezvous systems, etc. are all fighting for space there now.

Jim · « **Reply #44 on:** 08/31/2011 08:15 pm »

Quote from: happyflower on 08/25/2011 08:20 pm

Anybody know why the Bigelow space stations (Sapce Complex Alpha, CSS Skywalker, whatever) dont have a robot arm? From the ISS (solar array repairs) it appears having a robot arm is almost a must if you are going to be in space for the long term. Also with a robot arm, other space ships like the Dragon can also bring crews to Bigelow habitats.

Because they don't need one. You are making assumptions that are not based data.

Dragon will have docking adapter when it is used for crew missions.

mmeijeri · « **Reply #45 on:** 08/31/2011 08:18 pm »

Quote from: Jim on 08/31/2011 08:15 pm

Because they don't need one. You are making assumptions that are not based data.

So why don't they need one? I thought a robotic arm was an essential ingredient in your "how they could have built the ISS without the Shuttle" thread.

Robotbeat · « **Reply #46 on:** 08/31/2011 08:20 pm »

Quote from: mmeijeri on 08/31/2011 08:18 pm

Quote from: Jim on 08/31/2011 08:15 pm
Because they don't need one. You are making assumptions that are not based data.

So why don't they need one? I thought a robotic arm was an essential ingredient in your "how they could have built the ISS without the Shuttle" thread.

Bigelow has propulsion capabilities for each of his modules, kind of like the Russians. No arm needed.

Jim · « **Reply #47 on:** 08/31/2011 09:32 pm »

Quote from: mmeijeri on 08/31/2011 08:18 pm

Quote from: Jim on 08/31/2011 08:15 pm
Because they don't need one. You are making assumptions that are not based data.

So why don't they need one? I thought a robotic arm was an essential ingredient in your "how they could have built the ISS without the Shuttle" thread.

Because it was to build the ISS. Bigelow stations are not the ISS.

Jose · « **Reply #48 on:** 08/31/2011 09:53 pm »

Quote from: Jim on 08/31/2011 09:32 pm

Because it was to build the ISS. Bigelow stations are not the ISS.

I take it this means that they'll use (something like) NDS and just live with the smaller opening size.

Wasn't there also a concern about the structural loads on NDS interfaces if they were used to join together large station components?

mmeijeri · « **Reply #49 on:** 08/31/2011 10:17 pm »

Quote from: Jim on 08/31/2011 09:32 pm

Because it was to build the ISS. Bigelow stations are not the ISS.

So what's the relevant technical difference? Propulsion capabilities as Robotbeat suggested?

Robotbeat · « **Reply #50 on:** 08/31/2011 11:01 pm »

Quote from: Jose on 08/31/2011 09:53 pm

Quote from: Jim on 08/31/2011 09:32 pm
Because it was to build the ISS. Bigelow stations are not the ISS.

I take it this means that they'll use (something like) NDS and just live with the smaller opening size.

Wasn't there also a concern about the structural loads on NDS interfaces if they were used to join together large station components?

FYI, with the petals removed, NDS has a 32 inch diameter.
http://dockingstandard.nasa.gov/Meetings/TIM_%28Nov-17-2010%29/NDS_TIM_presentation.pdf
(page 33 shows the different loads that NDS will be capable of)

Also, there are versions which support 120VDC and 28VDC power transfer.

BTW, are there many (or any) considerations for fluid transfer? I know iLIDS was supposed to take that into account as a possible option, but I haven't seen anything like that for NDS. Fluid transfer is such a basic capability... The Russians sure find it useful.

manboy · « **Reply #51 on:** 09/01/2011 12:41 am »

Quote from: Robotbeat on 08/31/2011 11:01 pm

Quote from: Jose on 08/31/2011 09:53 pm
Quote from: Jim on 08/31/2011 09:32 pm
Because it was to build the ISS. Bigelow stations are not the ISS.

I take it this means that they'll use (something like) NDS and just live with the smaller opening size.

Wasn't there also a concern about the structural loads on NDS interfaces if they were used to join together large station components?

FYI, with the petals removed, NDS has a 32 inch diameter.
http://dockingstandard.nasa.gov/Meetings/TIM_%28Nov-17-2010%29/NDS_TIM_presentation.pdf
(page 33 shows the different loads that NDS will be capable of)

Also, there are versions which support 120VDC and 28VDC power transfer.

BTW, are there many (or any) considerations for fluid transfer? I know iLIDS was supposed to take that into account as a possible option, but I haven't seen anything like that for NDS. Fluid transfer is such a basic capability... The Russians sure find it useful.

iLIDS is NDS.

And according to a doc from last November, water and fuel transfer would be a future capability.

(Page 14)
http://dockingstandard.nasa.gov/Meetings/TIM_%28Nov-17-2010%29/NDS_TIM_presentation.pdf

ChefPat · « **Reply #52 on:** 09/01/2011 01:56 am »

Quote from: Orbital Debris on 08/31/2011 08:09 pm

Quote from: ChefPat on 08/25/2011 09:03 pm
Quote from: happyflower on 08/25/2011 08:20 pm
Anybody know why the Bigelow space stations (Sapce Complex Alpha, CSS Skywalker, whatever) dont have a robot arm? From the ISS (solar array repairs) it appears having a robot arm is almost a must if you are going to be in space for the long term. Also with a robot arm, other space ships like the Dragon can also bring crews to Bigelow habitats.
Who says they're not going to have one?

It is not in the baseline design. Also, to answer another question, the basic reason is due to cost. Packaging and hard points are issues to overcome as well. Solar arrays, radiators, and rendezvous systems, etc. are all fighting for space there now.

I very distinctly remember seeing an artists concept of a multiple BA-330 station with 2 RMS's. While I realize it was only a Marketing Tool, it seems that somebody at BA is looking to use that type of technology.
(I did a pretty thorough Google Image search & couldn't find it)

Patchouli · « **Reply #53 on:** 09/01/2011 02:04 am »

Quote from: Robotbeat on 08/31/2011 08:20 pm

Quote from: mmeijeri on 08/31/2011 08:18 pm
Quote from: Jim on 08/31/2011 08:15 pm
Because they don't need one. You are making assumptions that are not based data.

So why don't they need one? I thought a robotic arm was an essential ingredient in your "how they could have built the ISS without the Shuttle" thread.
Bigelow has propulsion capabilities for each of his modules, kind of like the Russians. No arm needed.

Mir had the Lyappa manipulator arm for moving modules around and then the Strela cranes for assisting EVA and moving small items about the exterior of the station.

BTW a robotic arm probably would not add too much to the cost of a private space station.
In fact a robotic arm or even something as sophisticated as DEXTRE could be a major money saver in operations.

joek · « **Reply #54 on:** 09/01/2011 03:55 am »

Bigelow's approach and philosophy appears to be distinctly different than the ISS. IIRC Bigelow has previously stated his desire (paraphrasing) to avoid in-space integration/construction as much as possible.

Unlike the ISS, each BA-330 module is completely self-contained (propulsion, power, ECLSS). That minimizes on-orbit work, and also gives him much greater flexibility in putting modules together (or not) to meet diverse customer demands.

Maybe some day he'll be leasing enough space that it makes sense to have more specialized modules and require more specialized and sophisticated on-orbit construction/integration, but that's likely to take a while.

In the mean time, the current approach seems to make a lot of sense (standardization, volume and lower costs first; customization later). In any case, there's nothing stopping him from adding a specialized module with specialized capability if the demand for customization is there.

happyflower · « **Reply #55 on:** 09/01/2011 06:13 am »

Thank you JoeK that was a good explanation of a lack of a robotic arm for Bigelow right now (if that is what you were explaining, you may have been answering some thing else but your answer made sense). I think a robot arm (or a robot) will become an integral part of any space station for two reasons. First reason is doing repairs on the outside structure will be greatly improved with a robot or a robot arm assisting a human. Second I think that tele-operations is going to become a larger and larger part of human space flight simply because of cost effectiveness (for example why not have a specialist surgeon perform a surgery on orbit using tele-operated robot arms instead of a moderately trained astronaut, or robotic grappling going on in orbit with humans on the ground if there are none in space). Also having a robot on a space station may help support the station if the station remains empty for a period of time. Not all of us know what Bigelow will need or not in the future like Jim.

A_M_Swallow · « **Reply #56 on:** 09/01/2011 12:27 pm »

Bigelow's website used to have a design your own spacestation game. Robot arms were one of the accessories, so Bigelow has though of this.

A spacestation that acts as a space port is likely to need robotic arms. Transferring 20mT cargoes from a launch vehicle to a deep space spacecraft is likely to need something stronger than the motors on a space suit.

Lars_J · « **Reply #57 on:** 09/01/2011 07:32 pm »

I'm curious about EVA capability. Every space station flown so far has had it (& and found it very useful for repair and external science payloads), but the Bigelow modules do not appear to have a dedicated airlock. Does anyone know how they play to support it?

ChefPat · « **Reply #58 on:** 09/01/2011 07:55 pm »

Quote from: Lars_J on 09/01/2011 07:32 pm

I'm curious about EVA capability. Every space station flown so far has had it (& and found it very useful for repair and external science payloads), but the Bigelow modules do not appear to have a dedicated airlock. Does anyone know how they play to support it?

At about 17:30 on this video you see a Bigelow version of an EVA Hatch.

Patchouli · « **Reply #59 on:** 09/01/2011 07:56 pm »

Quote from: A_M_Swallow on 09/01/2011 12:27 pm

Bigelow's website used to have a design your own spacestation game. Robot arms were one of the accessories, so Bigelow has though of this.

A spacestation that acts as a space port is likely to need robotic arms. Transferring 20mT cargoes from a launch vehicle to a deep space spacecraft is likely to need something stronger than the motors on a space suit.

A robot arm also would make reconfiguring a station as it's expanded a lot easier.
Sure you could just undock the modules and fly them to the new port but this would use up fuel and require docking and rendezvous hardware on all the ports.