Bigelow Aerospace Update Thread (2)

[Robotbeat]

(I know you removed that video, but it was hilarious, Ronsmytheiii...   Touche!)

[Ronsmytheiii]

Right, like no one has ever been burned working with the Russians...

It could be, you know, that he is patriotic. And don't underestimate the headaches of ITAR.

I did not state that there were not issues with working with the Russians, but that the possibility existed.  I am pretty sure that if NASA can get away with working with the Russians for a couple decades now, Bigelow could have as well.

Maybe he is patriotic, but patriotism doesn't change the fact that a proven crew transportation system existed.  Mr Bigelow simply choose not to use it for whatever reasons.


Edit: I dont want to be belligerent, commercial crew is important to both Bigelow and NASA.  I just wanted to be clear that Bigelow solely pinning the delays on Commercial crew is not the entire truth.

[Patchouli]

Isn't Soyuz production sold out for some time yet?

Right, even if he wanted to go with Soyuz (which he's on record as being against), the capacity only becomes available once NASA has it's own crew vehicle for ISS. I expect getting the Russians to ramp up further would be expensive and take several years to come on line.

The Russians have talked about a 5th Soyuz, but one flight per year is not going to support a space station business, especially when only one or two seats are available to paying customers.

Another issue is reaching the orbital inclination Bigelow wishes to place his station from Baikonur.

So agree with this. Congress is so incredibly inept at all levels. Such a shame. And if reports are true on the latest spending bill, they aim to hack another 400+ million out of commercial crew funds...!!

It seems congress has been painfully inept since the late 90s.

[MikeAtkinson]

The Global Exploration Workshop (http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/about/isecg/ger-webcast.html) has just had a presentation from Bigelow.

Lots of detail, including subsystem diagrams and testing that has been done.

Plan was end 2014 for launch of B-330, but this has been put back due to commercial crew not being ready by then (they say).

Made a big play of radiation protection advantages over Al shells. Within the pressure shell there is a layer of water bladders. D4H cannot launch one with all the bladders filled.

Propulsion modules allow transfer from LEO to L1/L2 and deep space.

Nothing about landing them on the Moon.

Hopefully slides and perhaps a recording of the video will be available tomorrow.

[clongton]

So agree with this. Congress is so incredibly inept at all levels. Such a shame. And if reports are true on the latest spending bill, they aim to hack another 400+ million out of commercial crew funds...!!

I am SOOO anti-this_Congress. They are beyond inept and border, imho on sheer stupidity. If they all disappeared tomorrow I would not miss a single one of them. We could send Mickey Mouse and Goofy up to DC from Fla and they would do a far better job, while they were taking a coffee break!

[Orbital Debris]

Made a big play of radiation protection advantages over Al shells. Within the pressure shell there is a layer of water bladders. D4H cannot launch one with all the bladders filled.

Bigelow keeps making these claims, but does not show modeling or testing results.   [Edit: removing harsh words and sticking to the facts.]

[mmeijeri]

Do you mean the European study?

[ChefPat]

Problem Two: Radiation Shielding

[Orbital Debris]

Do you mean the European study?

I don't mean the European study, because I'm not sure which one you are talking about.

I don't agree with Bigelow's statements about shielding values, and I can't go into specific reasons.
Unless they chose to present data, it is all hand waving. I think it is bad form to say "we are better than the other guys" without some data.

[mmeijeri]

Here's a link to the study I was talking about:

Radiation Shielding Simulation For Interplanetary Manned Missions

Among other things it studies inflatables, but not specifically Bigelow modules.

[grr]

Do you mean the European study?

I don't mean the European study, because I'm not sure which one you are talking about.

I don't agree with Bigelow's statements about shielding values, and I can't go into specific reasons.
Unless they chose to present data, it is all hand waving. I think it is bad form to say "we are better than the other guys" without some data.

May I ask if you believe that water is not an effective shielding against radiation? Because it certainly is.

[Prober]

So agree with this. Congress is so incredibly inept at all levels. Such a shame. And if reports are true on the latest spending bill, they aim to hack another 400+ million out of commercial crew funds...!!

I am SOOO anti-this_Congress. They are beyond inept and border, imho on sheer stupidity. If they all disappeared tomorrow I would not miss a single one of them. We could send Mickey Mouse and Goofy up to DC from Fla and they would do a far better job, while they were taking a coffee break!

The Imperial senate needs some new blood.   Anyone past two terms should be out.  Enough with these 30 year clowns.

[Orbital Debris]

Do you mean the European study?

I don't mean the European study, because I'm not sure which one you are talking about.

I don't agree with Bigelow's statements about shielding values, and I can't go into specific reasons.
Unless they chose to present data, it is all hand waving. I think it is bad form to say "we are better than the other guys" without some data.

May I ask if you believe that water is not an effective shielding against radiation? Because it certainly is.

I know that material with a large hydrogen content (polyethylene, LH2, H20) makes some of the best shielding in the space radiation environment. Which, if I recall my research, is due to the a dominance of abrasions/ablation interactions vice scattering. Since meijeri posted the link, I am actually familiar with the studies that suggest that MMOD and softgoods can be comparable (i.e. 1:1) for Galactic Cosmic Ray interactions, but not significantly exceeding the ISS model.  While the general buildup of the softgoods in the european study is in line with inflatable construction, they do not discuss areal densities.  The 4cm aluminum that they state for the ISS is based on models for the overall spacecraft geometry. 

Variations in spacecraft geometry can result a large variability in the dose rate experienced due GCR's or trapped protons in a low earth environment.  I've yet to see a published study of the Bigelow design of the softgoods (as in modeled in HZETRN code) correlated to any testing that shows an improvement over the ISS construction.

[Ben the Space Brit]

Of course, we run into commercial confidentiality issues here.  If, just if, Bigelow's hull material, especially water packet augmented, is an efficient and effective radiation shield, better than 'coke can' rigid metal hulls, then it is a pretty valuable commercial property.  It is against the company's best interests to submit the design to external scrutiny by anyone save the Patent Office.

[simonbp]

The problem with aluminum is that while it's great at intercepting the high energy particles, it tends to turn them into a cascade of lower energy particles which can still deliver a deadly dose. H-rich materials (i.e. water) don't produce those cascades as effectively.

[mmeijeri]

Are there any studies into layered approaches? Could it be helpful to have an aluminium layer followed by a different layer that is better at shielding secondaries? I tried to find such studies a while ago, but I don't remember any clear results.

[ChefPat]

Bigelow put a few new pix of the new factory. Not much new.

[Danderman]

Bigelow put a few new pix of the new factory. Not much new.

As I have said many times, Bob Bigelow will build buildings, fly subscale models, and build full scale mockups. That is what he does.

[mmeijeri]

Flying subscale models is no mean feat. Nor is building a business empire and getting foreign government agencies to sign MOUs for something as futuristic as commercial space stations.

[Bernie Roehl]

Flying subscale models is no mean feat. Nor is building a business empire and getting foreign government agencies to sign MOUs for something futuristic as commercial space stations.

True, and let's not forget that he has actually placed two of his modules in orbit (and in fact, they're still there).

So he's definitely serious, and capable.  At this stage it all comes down to money.