Bigelow Aerospace Update Thread (2)

[ChefPat]

When did Bigelow establish a Discussion Board?

There are only a few threads on that discussion board, my guess is the board has appeared for less than a month
[/quote]
I sign up & posted a couple qustions we've asked here in the past.
It will have been active 4 weeks this Wednesday.

[Jason1701]

Board is filled with spam.

[Mackilroy]

Looks like they cleaned it up. Wonder how much useful information anyone from here could get off their forums.

[Ronsmytheiii]

We were on schedule to have the first Bigelow modules (2 BA 330's) ready to launch by the end of 2014, but we rely on Crew transport vehicles to get our astronauts and customers back and forth to the station complex.

I have already expressed my opinion on the blaming on NASA part, but interesting that they are talking about two modules.

http://forum.bigelowaerospace.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=71

[RocketmanUS]

We were on schedule to have the first Bigelow modules (2 BA 330's) ready to launch by the end of 2014, but we rely on Crew transport vehicles to get our astronauts and customers back and forth to the station complex.

I have already expressed my opinion on the blaming on NASA part, but interesting that they are talking about two modules.

http://forum.bigelowaerospace.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=71

What was going to be the launch vehicle for the BA 330, DIVH or FH?

[Ronsmytheiii]

We were on schedule to have the first Bigelow modules (2 BA 330's) ready to launch by the end of 2014, but we rely on Crew transport vehicles to get our astronauts and customers back and forth to the station complex.

I have already expressed my opinion on the blaming on NASA part, but interesting that they are talking about two modules.

http://forum.bigelowaerospace.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=71

What was going to be the launch vehicle for the BA 330, DIVH or FH?

I believe it was an Atlas, but will ask.

[Orbital Debris]

Current ISS module (BEAM) is nothing like sundancer.  It is only slightly larger than Genesis. No truss, no eclss, no power, just a shell.
 

Under the flagship demonstration schedule there was a mention of adding advanced ECLSS to an inflatable at a later time, would beam support it or would a new module be required?

Edit: pg 12 and 13: http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/457439main_EEWS_FlagshipTechnologyDemonstrations.pdf

A new module would be required.  The BEAM does not have much inner structure, and likely not enough room for an ECLSS system, much less an advanced one.

[Orbital Debris]

Re: Sundancer - without arguing semantics, it is shelved, no one is working on it. I would estimate it was 30% coomplete.  One propulsion system (H2/O2, RCS really) was purchased and plumbed for the structure. Restraint layer and structure was designed (and redesigned a couple of times) but never had a modal analysis done. Final MMOD config was under eval. ECLSS never got beyond proof of concept  stage. Notional solar arrays and radiators, due to the fact mgmt could not get a handle on power or thermal budgets.

ECLSS stand for?
Can the Sundancer module receive power from ouside it's self?
Bigelow budget- does he have the money ( liquide ) or was the investment of up to $500M based on future income?

The "baseline plan" was to include the capability to receive power from outside itself Sundancer.  The ability to tranfer was necessary, because when building a complex, the only areas for solar array mounting was on the ends of the modules, which would result in shading.
Ah, that mythical 500 million.  RTB creates the impression that he has set aside funds of that amount.   Here is something that will cause some discussion: Bigelow funds the company from investments in the stock market.  Market downturns in 2008 and 2011 prompted restrictions and cutbacks in cash flow.   I'm sure some may dispute that, but I've been privy to enough discussions of cash flow to know better.  IMO, the quotes that RTB has put out with respect to expenditures to date are exaggerated.  He may be able to spend 500 million over 20 years, but it is based on income from investments, but it is a balance of cash flow, not liquid funds.  And definitely not future income. 

[Orbital Debris]

We were on schedule to have the first Bigelow modules (2 BA 330's) ready to launch by the end of 2014, but we rely on Crew transport vehicles to get our astronauts and customers back and forth to the station complex.

I have already expressed my opinion on the blaming on NASA part, but interesting that they are talking about two modules.

http://forum.bigelowaerospace.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=71

Ask all you want, it will be interesting to see what they will respond with.  All you will get there is a heaping helping of Bigelow punch if you care to drink it.

I would dispute that they were on schedule to deliver a complete BA330 by the end of 2014.  As an example, they had not even sized the thermal or power requirements for Sundancer.  The propulsion systems were procured for Sundancer, and are not adaptable for BA330. 

[Ronsmytheiii]

Ask all you want, it will be interesting to see what they will respond with.  All you will get there is a heaping helping of Bigelow punch if you care to drink it.

I would dispute that they were on schedule to deliver a complete BA330 by the end of 2014.  As an example, they had not even sized the thermal or power requirements for Sundancer.  The propulsion systems were procured for Sundancer, and are not adaptable for BA330. 

Thanks for the feedback, Id rather get the unfiltered feed back you have graciously given than the PAO filtered ones

So there is a bit of bait and switch when Bigelow states that the long pole is crew transportation, when they do not have final thermal.power or propulsion systems for the BA330.

[RocketmanUS]

Re: Sundancer - without arguing semantics, it is shelved, no one is working on it. I would estimate it was 30% coomplete.  One propulsion system (H2/O2, RCS really) was purchased and plumbed for the structure. Restraint layer and structure was designed (and redesigned a couple of times) but never had a modal analysis done. Final MMOD config was under eval. ECLSS never got beyond proof of concept  stage. Notional solar arrays and radiators, due to the fact mgmt could not get a handle on power or thermal budgets.

ECLSS stand for?
Can the Sundancer module receive power from ouside it's self?
Bigelow budget- does he have the money ( liquide ) or was the investment of up to $500M based on future income?

The "baseline plan" was to include the capability to receive power from outside itself Sundancer.  The ability to tranfer was necessary, because when building a complex, the only areas for solar array mounting was on the ends of the modules, which would result in shading.
Ah, that mythical 500 million.  RTB creates the impression that he has set aside funds of that amount.   Here is something that will cause some discussion: Bigelow funds the company from investments in the stock market.  Market downturns in 2008 and 2011 prompted restrictions and cutbacks in cash flow.   I'm sure some may dispute that, but I've been privy to enough discussions of cash flow to know better.  IMO, the quotes that RTB has put out with respect to expenditures to date are exaggerated.  He may be able to spend 500 million over 20 years, but it is based on income from investments, but it is a balance of cash flow, not liquid funds.  And definitely not future income. 

The money and when it is available is the big question. Crew transport to a free floater Sundancer or BA 330 by Soyuz could have been possible. So the question of crew transport not being available was not the question. So that could have been good for Soyuz/Progress team. That could have gotten things going if a module was ready.

Have they finnished the expansion to the building as planned for Q2 2011?

[Jason1701]

Have they finnished the expansion to the building as planned for Q2 2011?

The basic building was completed in June. Since then, they have been fitting out the interior. That's why the pictures have stopped.

[Danderman]

Ask all you want, it will be interesting to see what they will respond with.  All you will get there is a heaping helping of Bigelow punch if you care to drink it.

I would dispute that they were on schedule to deliver a complete BA330 by the end of 2014.  As an example, they had not even sized the thermal or power requirements for Sundancer.  The propulsion systems were procured for Sundancer, and are not adaptable for BA330. 

Thanks for the feedback, Id rather get the unfiltered feed back you have graciously given than the PAO filtered ones

So there is a bit of bait and switch when Bigelow states that the long pole is crew transportation, when they do not have final thermal.power or propulsion systems for the BA330.

In defense of Bob Bigelow, it is indeed true that without affordable human spaceflight capability, he would be unwise to invest in very expensive thermal, power, propulsion, ECLSS or other systems at this time.    The prudent thing to do is to go into hibernation, basically working on this systems at a very low level, until it would evident that someone is close to having a human orbital transportation system that is cheap enough for Bigelow's customers.  It's hard to say what event might make this evident, perhaps something wild like a commercial space firm orbiting a capsule that could carry people, but that is a long way off.

[Ronsmytheiii]

In defense of Bob Bigelow, it is indeed true that without affordable human spaceflight capability, he would be unwise to invest in very expensive thermal, power, propulsion, ECLSS or other systems at this time.   

Hmm, there is not any option available to him? 

(there is always an option, he is just not utilizing it)

[docmordrid]

Isn't Soyuz production sold out for some time yet?

[hop]

Isn't Soyuz production sold out for some time yet?

Right, even if he wanted to go with Soyuz (which he's on record as being against), the capacity only becomes available once NASA has it's own crew vehicle for ISS. I expect getting the Russians to ramp up further would be expensive and take several years to come on line.

The Russians have talked about a 5th Soyuz, but one flight per year is not going to support a space station business, especially when only one or two seats are available to paying customers.

[A_M_Swallow]

Can the spacestation use any of the CST-100 systems?  Designing everything from scratch is expensive.

[Ronsmytheiii]

Isn't Soyuz production sold out for some time yet?

That is beside the point, Bigelow could have asked years before for Soyuz flights, and Energia would have ramped up production.  The point is Bigelow gambled on commercial crew instead and as a result came up short.

One has to wonder whether Boeing would not be interested in acquiring Bigelow aerospace or acquiring a significant share percentage.  After all, Boeing has extensive experience in spaceflight but has shown the agility of the recent upstarts.

[Robotbeat]

Right, like no one has ever been burned working with the Russians...

It could be, you know, that he is patriotic. And don't underestimate the headaches of ITAR.

It would be a real shame if Bigelow did go with Soyuz because Congress was too afraid they might lose some pork to ever fund commercial crew to the extent that it would be useful to NASA (and, thus, as a side benefit, Bigelow). Now, I don't know about you, but I am pretty frustrated by the pace in Congress... It's like they'll HAPPILY fund something that'll NEVER have a commercial market (as long as it's in their district), but will shun funding something that, while a much better deal even all on its own, has the POSSIBILITY of not having a commercial market grow out of it. As far as stimulus, some in Congress would rather fund guaranteed waste rather than fund something which only has a slight possibility of waste.

[rcoppola]

Right, like no one has ever been burned working with the Russians...

It could be, you know, that he is patriotic. And don't underestimate the headaches of ITAR.

It would be a real shame if Bigelow did go with Soyuz because Congress was too afraid they might lose some pork to ever fund commercial crew to the extent that it would be useful to NASA (and, thus, as a side benefit, Bigelow). Now, I don't know about you, but I am pretty frustrated by the pace in Congress... It's like they'll HAPPILY fund something that'll NEVER have a commercial market (as long as it's in their district), but will shun funding something that, while a much better deal even all on its own, has the POSSIBILITY of not having a commercial market grow out of it. As far as stimulus, some in Congress would rather fund guaranteed waste rather than fund something which only has a slight possibility of waste.

So agree with this. Congress is so incredibly inept at all levels. Such a shame. And if reports are true on the latest spending bill, they aim to hack another 400+ million out of commercial crew funds...!!