Author Topic: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?  (Read 69302 times)

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #120 on: 06/12/2017 03:25 PM »
Apologies for bringing this thread back to life after so long, but this appears to be the thread with the most relevant and current information on this topic gathered together.

If SpaceX were to want to build a 10-meter or 12-meter stage and 13-meter or 15-meter max width spaceship at Hawthorne, could it be transported to Long Beach in a cost-effective manner?

Let's assume motivated California development officials, but no big infrastructure additions, like bridges over freeways, etc.  Likewise, let's also assume no airships.

For instance, could SpaceX use cranes to get these pieces over the two or three bridges/overpasses?  Admittedly, this doesn't seem elegant, cheap, or non-annoying to the good residents of LA County to do this a couple of times a year, but I wonder how expensive it actually would be.

Offline Jim

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #121 on: 06/12/2017 03:49 PM »
Apologies for bringing this thread back to life after so long, but this appears to be the thread with the most relevant and current information on this topic gathered together.

If SpaceX were to want to build a 10-meter or 12-meter stage and 13-meter or 15-meter max width spaceship at Hawthorne, could it be transported to Long Beach in a cost-effective manner?

Let's assume motivated California development officials, but no big infrastructure additions, like bridges over freeways, etc.  Likewise, let's also assume no airships.

For instance, could SpaceX use cranes to get these pieces over the two or three bridges/overpasses?  Admittedly, this doesn't seem elegant, cheap, or non-annoying to the good residents of LA County to do this a couple of times a year, but I wonder how expensive it actually would be.

basically, it is impossible. 

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #122 on: 06/12/2017 03:55 PM »
Apologies for bringing this thread back to life after so long, but this appears to be the thread with the most relevant and current information on this topic gathered together.

If SpaceX were to want to build a 10-meter or 12-meter stage and 13-meter or 15-meter max width spaceship at Hawthorne, could it be transported to Long Beach in a cost-effective manner?

Let's assume motivated California development officials, but no big infrastructure additions, like bridges over freeways, etc.  Likewise, let's also assume no airships.

For instance, could SpaceX use cranes to get these pieces over the two or three bridges/overpasses?  Admittedly, this doesn't seem elegant, cheap, or non-annoying to the good residents of LA County to do this a couple of times a year, but I wonder how expensive it actually would be.

basically, it is impossible.

Thank you, Jim.

Offline Jim

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #123 on: 06/12/2017 04:14 PM »
Apologies for bringing this thread back to life after so long, but this appears to be the thread with the most relevant and current information on this topic gathered together.

If SpaceX were to want to build a 10-meter or 12-meter stage and 13-meter or 15-meter max width spaceship at Hawthorne, could it be transported to Long Beach in a cost-effective manner?

Let's assume motivated California development officials, but no big infrastructure additions, like bridges over freeways, etc.  Likewise, let's also assume no airships.

For instance, could SpaceX use cranes to get these pieces over the two or three bridges/overpasses?  Admittedly, this doesn't seem elegant, cheap, or non-annoying to the good residents of LA County to do this a couple of times a year, but I wonder how expensive it actually would be.

basically, it is impossible.

Thank you, Jim.

maybe go to Marina Del Rey and barge to Long Beach.
« Last Edit: 06/12/2017 04:16 PM by Jim »

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #124 on: 06/12/2017 04:31 PM »
maybe go to Marina Del Rey and barge to Long Beach.

You can make it across the freeways, but shoot, Marina Del Rey is super non-industrial.

This wouldn't win them any friends, that's for sure.

Online envy887

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #125 on: 06/12/2017 04:37 PM »
Yeah, but where would you take it off from?  The runway at the facility is nowhere near long enough.  So you'd have to transport over-land anyway.

That's the reason I was sugjesting the A300-600ST Beluga it can use standard runways, and the stages of a rocket sans engines are not that much heavier than aircraft frames.

It still needs up to 3,000 feet of runway they don't have.

The Beluga needs 1386 m for takeoff per http://www.aertecsolutions.com/download/infographics/Infographic-AirbusBeluga-ENG.pdf

Hawthorne Muni has 1511 m of runway per https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1706/05120AD.PDF

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #126 on: 06/12/2017 04:46 PM »
Following up on Jim's suggestion, the move to Marina del Rey would be retracing many of the steps of the Shuttle External Tank move detailed here.

http://www.latimes.com/visuals/graphics/la-g-space-shuttles-external-tank-comes-to-la-20160226-htmlstory.html

The External Tank is 8.4 meters diameter by 47 meters long.
« Last Edit: 06/12/2017 04:47 PM by RedLineTrain »

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #127 on: 06/12/2017 07:31 PM »
After looking at pictures of Endeavor and the External Tank moving through the streets of Los Angeles from Marina del Rey, I'm absolutely convinced that moving a BFR stage and the spaceship from Hawthorne to port would be perfectly doable...  if you are willing to shut down LA for three days. ;)

http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-101612f.html
« Last Edit: 06/12/2017 07:40 PM by RedLineTrain »

Offline alang

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #128 on: 06/12/2017 08:31 PM »
After looking at pictures of Endeavor and the External Tank moving through the streets of Los Angeles from Marina del Rey, I'm absolutely convinced that moving a BFR stage and the spaceship from Hawthorne to port would be perfectly doable...  if you are willing to shut down LA for three days. ;)

http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-101612f.html

I'm surprised no one has mentioned tunnels yet...  :)

Offline spacenut

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #129 on: 06/12/2017 08:38 PM »
Ok, can SpaceX build a 5m 2nd stage (metholox) for F9 there?  If so, could a super-guppy or other short take off plane fly it to the cape?

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #130 on: 06/12/2017 08:54 PM »
Following up on Jim's suggestion, the move to Marina del Rey would be retracing many of the steps of the Shuttle External Tank move detailed here.

http://www.latimes.com/visuals/graphics/la-g-space-shuttles-external-tank-comes-to-la-20160226-htmlstory.html

The External Tank is 8.4 meters diameter by 47 meters long.

The SpaceX facility in Hawthorne is not that close to the route used for the Shuttle ET, although a 5m diameter structure would not need the same room as one that is 8.4m in diameter.

I would think they would be more likely to build such an item at a different location - one with better access to water transportation. Which could be a contractor facility, not one that is SpaceX owned.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Online edkyle99

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #131 on: 06/12/2017 09:13 PM »
Yeah, but where would you take it off from?  The runway at the facility is nowhere near long enough.  So you'd have to transport over-land anyway.

That's the reason I was sugjesting the A300-600ST Beluga it can use standard runways, and the stages of a rocket sans engines are not that much heavier than aircraft frames.

It still needs up to 3,000 feet of runway they don't have.

The Beluga needs 1386 m for takeoff per http://www.aertecsolutions.com/download/infographics/Infographic-AirbusBeluga-ENG.pdf

Hawthorne Muni has 1511 m of runway per https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1706/05120AD.PDF
I wonder what this thingy's take off distance would be while carrying a big cylindrical thing.



 - Ed Kyle

Offline IainMcClatchie

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #132 on: 06/12/2017 09:19 PM »
The route that the shuttle external tank took would mostly work.

Instead of turning left on South La Brea Ave, so straight and turn right on South Prarie Ave.  This takes you OVER the 105.  Turn left on Jack Northrop Ave and you are at SpaceX.

Shoot.  Last year I looked at the LA map for quite a while trying to figure out how to get out from SpaceX, and never saw this route.

Offline HankinNM

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #133 on: 06/12/2017 09:55 PM »
 ???  I guess I'm missing something here (Is this OT??)  I thought the plan was to build and launch from south Texas, or is this thread an exercise in speculation?  I know it has just been 'reactivated', but thought they were headed this way (to south Texas) back in 2011.
Not an engineer or a mathematician.  Just a rabid space/astronomy freak and Spacex 'groupie'.

Offline docmordrid

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #134 on: 06/13/2017 12:01 AM »
Is there a way to take it down the 105 and use the LA River basin to get it to Long Beach? What are the bridge clearances along that stretch?
DM

Offline HMXHMX

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #135 on: 06/13/2017 12:26 AM »
Yeah, but where would you take it off from?  The runway at the facility is nowhere near long enough.  So you'd have to transport over-land anyway.

That's the reason I was sugjesting the A300-600ST Beluga it can use standard runways, and the stages of a rocket sans engines are not that much heavier than aircraft frames.

It still needs up to 3,000 feet of runway they don't have.

The Beluga needs 1386 m for takeoff per http://www.aertecsolutions.com/download/infographics/Infographic-AirbusBeluga-ENG.pdf

Hawthorne Muni has 1511 m of runway per https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1706/05120AD.PDF
I wonder what this thingy's take off distance would be while carrying a big cylindrical thing.



 - Ed Kyle

Given that the clear height under the wing spar is about 6M, it might be infinite.

Offline deruch

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #136 on: 06/13/2017 01:31 AM »
Is there a way to take it down the 105 and use the LA River basin to get it to Long Beach? What are the bridge clearances along that stretch?
Worked on The Core.

For reals though, no.  Wouldn't have clearance along 105E, and probably not on the river either, but there I'm not sure.
Shouldn't reality posts be in "Advanced concepts"?  --Nomadd

Online gongora

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #137 on: 06/13/2017 01:46 PM »
???  I guess I'm missing something here (Is this OT??)  I thought the plan was to build and launch from south Texas, or is this thread an exercise in speculation?  I know it has just been 'reactivated', but thought they were headed this way (to south Texas) back in 2011.

This thread is an exercise in speculation, but SpaceX has never specified where they are going to build the bigger stages.  It's not really out of the question for initial production to happen in LA.

Offline RotoSequence

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #138 on: 06/13/2017 01:51 PM »
???  I guess I'm missing something here (Is this OT??)  I thought the plan was to build and launch from south Texas, or is this thread an exercise in speculation?  I know it has just been 'reactivated', but thought they were headed this way (to south Texas) back in 2011.

This thread is an exercise in speculation, but SpaceX has never specified where they are going to build the bigger stages.  It's not really out of the question for initial production to happen in LA.

I don't foresee them getting very far without dramatic developments and innovation with segmented carbon fiber pressure vessels, which sounds rather unlikely.

Offline gospacex

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Re: How big a stage could SpaceX build at Hawthorne?
« Reply #139 on: 06/13/2017 02:32 PM »
so...how easy would it be to pack up and move to florida? :)
jb

It makes more sense for Hawthorne to continue making money, er, I meant making F9s and Merlins, and open a *new* factory for large diameter new rockets whereever is convenient.

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