Author Topic: Two Californian Senators Call for Competitive Heavy-Lift Propulsion Procurement  (Read 39159 times)

Offline agman25

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« Last Edit: 06/03/2011 12:53 AM by Chris Bergin »

Offline Pheogh

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Re: SLS to be open for bids??
« Reply #1 on: 06/02/2011 07:52 PM »
Can someone explain to me how this is clearly not a partisan attempt to scuttle the process. These 2 have been utterly silent on this whole issue dare I say completely uninterested, this stinks to high heaven!! I certainly hope that coalition which has formed around the authorization is able to put these 2 in their place.

It is not the proposal that I disagree with it is the ridiculously circumstantial timing.
« Last Edit: 06/03/2011 12:52 AM by Chris Bergin »

Online Robotbeat

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Re: SLS to be open for bids??
« Reply #2 on: 06/02/2011 07:53 PM »
Really, I doubt it's partisan. Most likely they just felt left out of the feeding trough.
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Offline Namechange User

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Re: SLS to be open for bids??
« Reply #3 on: 06/02/2011 07:57 PM »
Very Good Idea IMO.

Bids and competition are generally good things, but at times so is evolution. 

If this is going to be the tactic taken, just cancel the whole damn thing because it no longer becomes worth it given the lack of architecuture, destination(s), time tables, mission scopes.....leadership. 
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Offline Periander

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Re: SLS to be open for bids??
« Reply #4 on: 06/02/2011 08:01 PM »
Fantastic news.

Offline Pheogh

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Re: SLS to be open for bids??
« Reply #5 on: 06/02/2011 08:02 PM »
Really, I doubt it's partisan. Most likely they just felt left out of the feeding trough.

Not in the political sense but in the Commercial vs Government. Would this not bring SLS development to an utter stand still if they choose to pursue it further. Would this action not give more time for further disassembly of our infrastructure. At every turn over the last 4 years there has been factions that were opposed to government HLV (SDLV for that matter) throwing curve balls at the last minute. This is clearly what these 2 are doing IMHO. Look at the entirety of the landscape and all that has happened. This is not an epiphany of common sense by these 2, no way.

If it is indeed what you are proposing than certainly what the lesson of the last 4 years should have taught them is that you don't take on ATK head on like this.

Offline Namechange User

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Re: SLS to be open for bids??
« Reply #6 on: 06/02/2011 08:05 PM »
Would this not bring SLS development to an utter stand still if they choose to pursue it further. Would this action not give more time for further disassembly of our infrastructure.

Absolutely.  Hence why I said cancel the damn thing if it happens this way.  It no longer becomes worth it.

Now people can speculate all day long if this is "intentional" or playing into the master plan of others.  I really don't care anymore. 
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Offline Pheogh

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Re: SLS to be open for bids??
« Reply #7 on: 06/02/2011 08:06 PM »
Very Good Idea IMO.

Bids and competition are generally good things, but at times so is evolution. 

If this is going to be the tactic taken, just cancel the whole damn thing because it no longer becomes worth it given the lack of architecuture, destination(s), time tables, mission scopes.....leadership. 

This just stink to high heaven OV there is no way around it. We are finally on the eve of a decision to move forward and these 2 jump out of the would work? I'm not buying it, both of these ladies are unfortunately my reps and I can tell you they do NOT have the best interest of the Space Program in mind.

Offline SpacexULA

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Re: SLS to be open for bids??
« Reply #8 on: 06/02/2011 08:13 PM »
Very Good Idea IMO.
Bids and competition are generally good things, but at times so is evolution. 
If this is going to be the tactic taken, just cancel the whole damn thing because it no longer becomes worth it given the lack of architecuture, destination(s), time tables, mission scopes.....leadership.

How would it not be in the fiscal best interest of the American people at large for the SLS to be competitively bid? 

Moon and Mars aren't going anywhere, but the country is out of money.

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Offline Mark S

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Re: SLS to be open for bids??
« Reply #9 on: 06/02/2011 08:14 PM »
This hinges on their interpretation of "practicable", and on a creative reading of the "preliminary" report on SLS that NASA turned in to Congress back in January.

If NASA comes back this month with a new "final" report that says that SLS is practicable using existing contracts, then their argument holds no water. Not that it does anyway.

As stated earlier, they just see this as a chance at some federal $$ for their constituents. Bad idea if they actually want SLS to move forward.

Nothing to see here, move along.

Offline Periander

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Re: SLS to be open for bids??
« Reply #10 on: 06/02/2011 08:20 PM »
This just stink to high heaven OV there is no way around it. We are finally on the eve of a decision to move forward and these 2 jump out of the would work? I'm not buying it, both of these ladies are unfortunately my reps and I can tell you they do NOT have the best interest of the Space Program in mind.

You are wrong to characterize this as jumping out of the wood work. Aerojet has been making noises about this for quite some time:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/space/os-nasa-is-flailing-20110116,0,795646.story

Aerojet is well within its rights to challenge billions of taxpayer dollars being awarded to a competitor without any chance to compete.

Offline Namechange User

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Re: SLS to be open for bids??
« Reply #11 on: 06/02/2011 08:23 PM »
Very Good Idea IMO.
Bids and competition are generally good things, but at times so is evolution. 
If this is going to be the tactic taken, just cancel the whole damn thing because it no longer becomes worth it given the lack of architecuture, destination(s), time tables, mission scopes.....leadership.

How would it not be in the fiscal best interest of the American people at large for the SLS to be competitively bid? 



Because you are assuming the false premise that a "bid" happens after development, etc.  That would be incorrect.

In reality a "bid" is placed on what you *believe* something will cost in response to a general set of requirements and general scope of the statement of work.  Then, after award, the real DEVELOPMENT starts, where if we use what we have in the form of major elements, this does not need to happen.

Then, after all that is done, you will likely find you are no better off than you were previously and just spent a bunch of money, time, etc developing something you already had but now with another vendor. 
« Last Edit: 06/02/2011 08:28 PM by OV-106 »
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Offline clongton

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Re: SLS to be open for bids??
« Reply #12 on: 06/02/2011 08:25 PM »
Neither of these two persons have the slightest clue what they are doing. They don't even know the difference between the spacecraft and the launch vehicle. Note from their letter they said:
Quote
As you know, this legislation directed the agency to construct a new human rated spacecraft by 2016 while utilizing existing contracts where "practicable." However, NASA itself has already concluded that such a plan is not practicable.
The 1st sentence is about Orion, but gave the launch vehicle date, and the second sentence is about the launch vehicle but is in the context of the Orion spacecraft.

This letter does not appear to me like a serious attempt to engage the space agency in practical action. Rather it is, imo, a political stunt to get their names in print. They are desperately trying to get a piece of the action before it's too late. California would be better served if these two ladies had their marching orders confined to fixing the financial mess that the state has found itself in thanks in no small part to legislators like these who speak without knowledge.
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I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline Downix

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Re: SLS to be open for bids??
« Reply #13 on: 06/02/2011 08:34 PM »
Something of the whole thing sounds too odd, and Chuck hit part of it on the head.  The whole piece seems disjointed.
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Offline Chris Bergin

Moved to Space Policy and given it a better thread title, as it's important to know it's just two Senators, who aren't any influence compared to Hutchison and Nelson as noted in the thread.

Offline clongton

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Moved to Space Policy and given it a better thread title, as it's important to know it's just two Senators, who aren't any influence compared to Hutchison and Nelson as noted in the thread.

hahaha. Moved to the "wild west" :)
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline Pheogh

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Re: SLS to be open for bids??
« Reply #16 on: 06/02/2011 08:41 PM »
This just stink to high heaven OV there is no way around it. We are finally on the eve of a decision to move forward and these 2 jump out of the would work? I'm not buying it, both of these ladies are unfortunately my reps and I can tell you they do NOT have the best interest of the Space Program in mind.

You are wrong to characterize this as jumping out of the wood work. Aerojet has been making noises about this for quite some time:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/space/os-nasa-is-flailing-20110116,0,795646.story

Aerojet is well within its rights to challenge billions of taxpayer dollars being awarded to a competitor without any chance to compete.

Like I said taking on ATK head to head is not the way to do this. As the AJAX people have learned the smarter strategy is to get the vehicle flying an evolve it competitively. Heck commercialize the thing (later) for all I care. However these antics at this point in time is like standing on the deck of the ship with a can of gas and match, while still out at sea.

Offline Mark Max Q

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So there's outrage at so called ATK lobbyists, but joy if SpaceX lobbyists get involved? ;)

Offline Periander

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Re: SLS to be open for bids??
« Reply #18 on: 06/02/2011 08:54 PM »
Like I said taking on ATK head to head is not the way to do this.


The is no way for Aerojet to "do this" unless they take ATK on head to head and challenge billions of taxpayer dollars being awarded to ATK on a no bid contract.

Offline EE Scott

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I think this will be a non-issue unless the companies themselves (e.g., Aerojet and whomever else is interested in this) would come out and threaten legal efforts which could delay things.  I am not sure how seriously NASA has to take this, maybe someone knows, like 51D?   ???
« Last Edit: 06/02/2011 09:07 PM by EE Scott »
Scott

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